More than a third of community college students have vanished • Hacker News Board

Re: More than a third of community college students have vanished

#51

Post by VLM » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 3:05 PM UTC

causi wrote: post #26

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is usually a path for two years of cheaper community college with transferable credits to two final years at a state university.

Problem being that community colleges will happily lie to your face about what does and does not transfer and most community college students aren't going to lawyer up about it.

The program I successfully completed had detailed written documentation from both the CC and uni at sign up time, of exactly what needed to happen as part of the organized official admissions program. Grades had to be above C IIRC and they were very specific about exactly which "electives" we were permitted to select, such that they were not really "electives" they were just non-major required courses if you wanted to transfer in with 64 credits. IIRC I willfully took some different electives and ended up with only 48 or 56 credits but I had written documentation explaining what I did.

I do believe there is airy and non-specific marketing material about "take your calculus class at CC and transfer to some schools" in a non-specific manner that is, as you claim, sort of fictional. Or "many of our classes transfer to state-U" which in a legal sense is technically true.

Re: More than a third of community college students have vanished

#52

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 3:12 PM UTC

atty wrote: post #13

etempleton wrote: post #8

It is a bit of paradox that community colleges are, in theory, what every talking head and commentator are asking colleges to be—direct, cheap, no frill, about the education only—and yet there is no other college type that is seeing a more precipitous enrollment drop off than community colleges and technical schools. The answer, and no one likes this, is what people say they want and what they actually want as voted…

I think that’s missing one big piece. What people really want cheap education that ends with a degree that is as well regarded as an Ivy or good state college degree. Community colleges, for better or worse, are seen as inferior education. So they are not equivalent to simply a cheaper option of more expensive schools.

[deleted]

Re: More than a third of community college students have vanished

#53

Post by VLM » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 3:15 PM UTC

mjburgess wrote: post #15

etempleton wrote: post #8

It is a bit of paradox that community colleges are, in theory, what every talking head and commentator are asking colleges to be—direct, cheap, no frill, about the education only—and yet there is no other college type that is seeing a more precipitous enrollment drop off than community colleges and technical schools. The answer, and no one likes this, is what people say they want and what they actually want as voted…

The issue is network effects, though, right? If community colleges could attract the best teachers (etc.), and provide the kind of education as stated , then perhaps they would be what people want. The problem is the incentives of workers, academics, students, the state, etc. are not aligned. Most students probably do want the best practical education to get them into the workforce effectively -- but those who can pr…

"the people" are not "the best", they don't need to hire top 1% ivy league only, to teach 100% of the taxpaying public whom pay for the CC.

The local CC paid TAs the same at 2 year CC as at 4 year state U. Odd that they charge differential tuition to students while paying the TA the same. I had a programming grad student TA and a History grad student TA who both commuted to also teach at the 4-year down the road 30 miles.

Re: More than a third of community college students have vanished

#54

Post by etempleton » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 3:17 PM UTC

causi wrote: post #26

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is usually a path for two years of cheaper community college with transferable credits to two final years at a state university.

Problem being that community colleges will happily lie to your face about what does and does not transfer and most community college students aren't going to lawyer up about it.

It isn't likely that they are intentionally lying. What is and is not accepted is dependent on the school and the other school can change their mind at any point and the community college has no control over that.

Re: More than a third of community college students have vanished

#55

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 3:19 PM UTC

Merad wrote: post #44

causi wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem being that community colleges will happily lie to your face about what does and does not transfer and most community college students aren't going to lawyer up about it.

To be fair, what transfers is determined by the school you're transferring to. Then on top of that you have to match up the requirements for your major, i.e. you might have a CC science course that is accepted by the university but doesn't meet the science required by your major. I suspect there are a LOT of CC students who only have vague goals of transferring somewhere to finish a four year degree (I was one of the…

[deleted]

Re: More than a third of community college students have vanished

#56

Post by etempleton » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 3:22 PM UTC

jseliger wrote: post #12

etempleton wrote: post #8

It is a bit of paradox that community colleges are, in theory, what every talking head and commentator are asking colleges to be—direct, cheap, no frill, about the education only—and yet there is no other college type that is seeing a more precipitous enrollment drop off than community colleges and technical schools. The answer, and no one likes this, is what people say they want and what they actually want as voted…

I've taught at community colleges; many of the issues mentioned in the article are long-standing. So what's driving the change now ? The simplest answer is the most likely: the strong economy, including among relatively low wage, low skill workers.

This is true and not well understood by many as well. Community colleges and many graduate programs often run counter-cyclically to the economy. When unemployment is high many post pone entering the job market or go back to school to up-skill and fill an unemployment gap.

Undergraduate enrollment at a 4-year school technically runs cyclically to the economy, but in practical terms enrollment remains flat at most schools.

Re: More than a third of community college students have vanished

#57

Post by scottLobster » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 3:25 PM UTC

screwturner68 wrote: post #49

scottLobster wrote: post #31

My wife briefly (a couple of semesters) tried to go through a software development curriculum at our community college, which is apparently decently funded as community colleges go. Having gone through a 4-year Bachelor's in Computer Engineering at an ABET accredited university, the community college program was pathetic by comparison. There was one professor who seemed to have his shit together and worth the money.…

I don't know if that was the schools issue or what is going on in higher-education in general. I've been out of college for over 30 years but I like to take a class every year to learn things -I like a classroom setting. The first time I did this it was at the local CC and the prof was really behind the times are far as what is going on in industry, I learned a lot of good basics but I felt bad for the other students…

Perhaps not "inspire", but if you can't rely on the prof for adequate direction and explanation what the hell are you paying for?

Re: More than a third of community college students have vanished

#58

Post by dadarepublic » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 3:26 PM UTC

I remember when I first started out on my college academic path I tried a semester at a community collage. I don't recall the name of the class but it was something to do with computers. I figured start off with something I'm already good at and see what I get out of the experience.

It became apparent very early that I was much more advanced than the instructor. So much so that I realized this person was woefully unqualified to teach anyone anything about "computers". I remember the day when he looked at me and out of earshot of the other students said something to the effect of "Don't tell anyone OK?".

My next semester I made sure was at a proper four year college for CompSci.

I don't look back unkindly at my experience as a whole for that community college, it just makes some of the issues in the OP article ring true. Smart people will know the quality of education they're receiving especially when they're having to pay for it.

Re: More than a third of community college students have vanished

#59

Post by legitster » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 3:30 PM UTC

kaycebasques wrote: post #34

legitster wrote: post #20

I had a wonderful time at community college! (It helps that my community college had an amazing service department). Even for people who don't finish a degree, it's still a great place to get exposure or make connections. And it's much cheaper to find out college isn't for you at community college. Transfer programs though are a mess. The culprit are the 4-year universities - who actually punish you for not coming di…

> Transfer programs though are a mess Depends on the state. IGETC [1], the transfer program from California community colleges to the UC system, was very straightforward back in 2007-2009. Cal had a few dorm buildings specifically for transfer students. Each UC even provided stats on the admission rate for each major. [1] https://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/admission-requi...

I took advantage of a similar transfer program in WA state (about which this article is written) but it was not at all straightforward. The state colleges only had so many openings they made available to transfer students, and the application process was worse in many ways.

Part of the issue they won't tell you is that you can apply as a transfer student with basic admissions requirements, but to actually get into some of the specific undergraduate programs had their own admissions requirements.

I was in a weird situation where I got accepted to the college but not into the undergrad program I had been working towards. AND ON TOP OF THAT you couldn't transfer in as a sophomore - you had 6 months to declare a major or you got kicked out. So you were forced to find ANY program at the college that would accept you.

(So as much as people have bad experiences with community colleges, I personally had a much worse time at the university level)

Re: More than a third of community college students have vanished

#60

Post by kaycebasques » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 3:34 PM UTC

Great topic. Lots of mixed feelings. This thread is becoming generally negative on community colleges (CCs) so I will balance it out with my overwhelmingly positive experience.

Graduated HS in 2007. Was not ambitious in HS whatsoever. Soon after graduating I realized I needed to get my shit together. Education was the best bet at that time. My grandpa was a CC guidance counselor so the CC path was acceptable and familiar in my family. I never actually got much formal guidance counseling from him by the way. The first semester was disorienting but isn't all big change in life? I got much more confident that I could transfer once I discovered IGETC [1]. Every CC class was clearly marked to show what IGETC area it fulfilled. The UCs even provide statistics on the transfer admission rate for each major. My family was poor on paper so I got a lot of financial support. $5K to $10K per year in grants. I actually had $2K in savings purely from grants by the time I transferred to Cal! I chuckle a bit at UC kids taking on $50K in debt for lower-level general education whereas I ended up getting paid $2K to do the same! I transferred on-time, in 2 years. I pretty much had to devote my time to studies, though. It was very lonely. Continuing to live with my mom sucked. I regret not finding ways to socialize productively more during CC. But you can totally find concentrations of ambitious, high-performing peers. The advanced STEM classes had a lot of serious academics for example. I met some sharp people working on the school newspaper who probably went on to significant success in life. The professors were high-quality in general. Most had graduated from Stanford or UCs (colleges in the University of California system) themselves. They were totally focused on teaching us rather than doing research like most UC professors. When you get to CC it's really clear right away that a lot of students will not transfer even though that is their stated goal. Some just have too much life responsibility: needing to balance studies with full-time work to support a family and pay bills, etc. That is a tragedy. There were quite a few spoiled kids who probably subconsciously knew they would never really need to make a big career for themselves and weren't motivated for reasons like that. There were a lot of peers who unfortunately just had bad mindsets about education. You could tell that they didn't accept they needed to start being uncool and start reading a lot of books. There were a lot of peers who unfortunately were probably just bewildered by the bureaucracy of schools and just couldn't figure out the system and weren't being encouraged to persist at their studies. A lot of the students who don't transfer or get a degree as intended are up against some combination of those factors. Some of those problems are solvable by CCs. Others are deep-rooted and I don't think it's reasonable to expect CCs to fix them. Maybe we should just set the expectation that a lot of CC students won't transfer or get a degree simply because they are catering to "at-risk" populations. All-in-all CC was a smashing success for me in terms of sparking my passion for learning and providing an affordable foundation for career success.

[1] https://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/admission-requi...