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Direct evidence of the use of multiple drugs in Bronze Age from human hair test

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Re: Direct evidence of the use of multiple drugs in Bronze Age from human hair test

#51

Post by dav_Oz »

For anyone interested in the kind of drugs involved here:

>The analysis showed the presence of atropine, scopolamine and ephedrine in the three replicated hair samples (Fig. 5) at the following concentrations: 6.7, 9.2, and 10.7 (mean = 8.9) pg atropine/mg hair, 384, 423 and 504 (mean = 437) pg scopolamine/mg hair, and 295, 328 and 367 (mean = 330) pg ephedrine/mg hair.

Drug use in the broadest sense.

Atropine and scopolamine are no fun drugs as deliriants they require extraordinary skill. In this case the ratio of atropine:scopolamine could be indicative of Datura stramonium [0] growing in the region.

Most recreational drug users who try to experiment with Datura et al. quickly realize after "waking up" ~ 24 hours or so totally disoriented in questionable disposition with little to no memory with what had happened that it is nearly impossible to put them into "good use" and leave it be at some point. Regular use is mostly documented by highly experienced shamans (i.e. experienced in different forms of altered state of consciousness).

[As a note aside: In 1934 Bill Wilson a struggling alcoholic and later founder of AA had a transformative experience under the heavy influence of atropine and scopolamine ("Belladonna Cure") after which he became sober:

>At Towns Hospital under Silkworth's care, Wilson was administered a drug cure concocted by Charles B. Towns. Known as the Belladonna Cure, it contained belladonna (Atropa belladonna) and henbane (Hyoscyamus niger). These plants contain deliriants, such as atropine and scopolamine, that cause hallucinations.

It was while undergoing this treatment that Wilson experienced his "Hot Flash" spiritual conversion. While lying in bed depressed and despairing, Wilson cried out: "I'll do anything! Anything at all! If there be a God, let Him show Himself!" He then had the sensation of a bright light, a feeling of ecstasy, and a new serenity.] [1]

Ephedrine on the other hand is a stimulant (methamphetamine analogue with a hydroxyl group at the β position), now mostly used by bodybuilders in much higher doses (an order of magnitude higher than measured in the hairs above) to effectively burn fat.

[0]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datura_stramonium

[1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Alcoholics_Anonym...

Re: Direct evidence of the use of multiple drugs in Bronze Age from human hair test

#52

Post by qumpis »

verilux68 wrote: post #23
reducesuffering wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine opioid pills were OTC. For a lot of people, they will initially be instant feel-good happy pills, even though people know there will be disastrous repercussions to taking them indefinitely. How many people go through bouts of severe depression? Won't some percentage of them, in moments of weakness, decide to try the opioid pills, feel good, and get sucked in? Shouldn't we as a society, try to curb humanity's…

They are already available on street corners, snapchat, and the darkweb. With no authority to ensure what dosage the illicitly manufactured pressed-pills have.

Sure, but the fraction of people who would go out of their way to access these is presumably small(er), especially those who havent yet tried them and who would nt jump through so many hoops to acquire them if they dont know their effect.

I know I'm happy certain drugs aren't easily available.

Re: Direct evidence of the use of multiple drugs in Bronze Age from human hair test

#53

Post by WheelsAtLarge »

Drugs or herbal medicine? Is there even a difference when talking about early civilizations? We know that herbal medicine was a staple of many early civilizations. Even animals use herbs as medicine. It seems to me that we have known this information for ages.

Re: Direct evidence of the use of multiple drugs in Bronze Age from human hair test

#54

Post by akiselev »

kortex wrote: post #48

> Thus, opium alkaloids were detected in Late Bronze Age containers > different hallucinogenic compounds, mainly nicotine, tryptamines and tropane alkaloids have been chemically documented in Prehispanic artefacts from the Americas, and psychoactive compounds of Cannabis in archaeological wooden braziers from China. > The alkaloids ephedrine, atropine and scopolamine were detected, and their concentrations estimated…

A fascinating thought is that we might have been doing this since _before_ homo sapiens emerged as a species. We've got plenty of evidence that we had cultural propagation of knowledge among our early ancestors for over three millions of years via the Oldowan and Acheulean stone industries.

Since hunter gatherers naturally passed along knowledge of the safety of edible plants, at what point did they figure out how to get high and start passing that along too? It's entirely plausible that our species and immediate ancestors have been getting high for millions of years! Since we have to eat anyways, we might have discovered our first high before our first stone tool!

Kinda puts the war on drugs in an even worse light.

Re: Direct evidence of the use of multiple drugs in Bronze Age from human hair test

#55

Post by SV_BubbleTime »

ren_engineer wrote: post #25
eurleif wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To oversimplify, that's why prohibition 1.0 had to be done via constitutional amendment; but since then, we had the Wickard v. Filburn ruling, which made virtually everything regulatable under the Commerce Clause with its extremely broad interpretation of the phrase "interstate commerce". In Wickard v. Filburn, a farmer grew grain on his farm. He did not sell this grain, whether across state lines or otherwise; he me…

you can thank FDR for stacking the supreme court and outright threatening to increase the number of justices to intimidate other justices for that ruling. Supreme Court went with every overreach of power that FDR wanted for the federal government, including affirming the right to intern Japanese-Americans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_Procedures_Reform_Bil...

>outright threatening to increase the number of justices to intimidate other justices for that ruling

Good thing we’ve learned so much since then. You would never have anyone so short sighted as to jump up and down for that in these more civilized times.

Re: Direct evidence of the use of multiple drugs in Bronze Age from human hair test

#57

Post by pash »

vkou wrote: post #50
ren_engineer wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you can thank FDR for stacking the supreme court and outright threatening to increase the number of justices to intimidate other justices for that ruling. Supreme Court went with every overreach of power that FDR wanted for the federal government, including affirming the right to intern Japanese-Americans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_Procedures_Reform_Bil...

If we're going to blame someone, why not blame the court for expanding its own power, back in 1803? SCOTUS' current role is defined nowhere in constitution (Which says next to nothing about the roles of courts), or by an act of legislature. It was, quite literally, magicked out of thin air by SCOTUS.

The role of the courts in deciding the constitutionality of legislation was very much in the zeitgeist of the American experiment. Federalist, No. 78:

> It is not otherwise to be supposed, that the Constitution could intend to enable the representatives of the people to substitute their will to that of their constituents. It is far more rational to suppose, that the courts were designed to be an intermediate body between the people and the legislature, in order, among other things, to keep the latter within the limits assigned to their authority. [0]

It is absurd to say that the Supreme Court “magicked out of thin air” the notion of judicial review in Marbury v. Madison. That was simply the Court's first assertion of the power the constitution gave it to wield, the wielding of which is the primary purpose of the judiciary as a separate but equal branch of American government.

0. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_No._78#Judicial_r...

Re: Direct evidence of the use of multiple drugs in Bronze Age from human hair test

#58

Post by sudosysgen »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #44
kevviiinn wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who drink too much do even more damage to their bodies and brains than any other drug so that argument is nonsense

> People who drink too much do even more damage to their bodies and brains than any other drug It’s possible to do a lot of damage with heavy drinking, yes, but it’s not true at all to suggest alcohol is the most damaging drug. There are numerous synthetic drugs that can produce long lasting damage or even death even in experienced drug users who believe themselves to be consuming responsibly.

Alcohol is a drug that very often produces long lasting damage or even death in experienced users who believe to be drinking responsibly. In fact, it causes long lasting damage to a very significant portion of its users.

Re: Direct evidence of the use of multiple drugs in Bronze Age from human hair test

#59

Post by voldacar »

pash wrote: post #57
vkou wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we're going to blame someone, why not blame the court for expanding its own power, back in 1803? SCOTUS' current role is defined nowhere in constitution (Which says next to nothing about the roles of courts), or by an act of legislature. It was, quite literally, magicked out of thin air by SCOTUS.

The role of the courts in deciding the constitutionality of legislation was very much in the zeitgeist of the American experiment. Federalist , No. 78: > It is not otherwise to be supposed, that the Constitution could intend to enable the representatives of the people to substitute their will to that of their constituents. It is far more rational to suppose, that the courts were designed to be an intermediate body be…

Where in the constitution is that power described or given?

Re: Direct evidence of the use of multiple drugs in Bronze Age from human hair test

#60

Post by calderknight »

akiselev wrote: post #54
kortex wrote: post #48

> Thus, opium alkaloids were detected in Late Bronze Age containers > different hallucinogenic compounds, mainly nicotine, tryptamines and tropane alkaloids have been chemically documented in Prehispanic artefacts from the Americas, and psychoactive compounds of Cannabis in archaeological wooden braziers from China. > The alkaloids ephedrine, atropine and scopolamine were detected, and their concentrations estimated…

A fascinating thought is that we might have been doing this since _before_ homo sapiens emerged as a species. We've got plenty of evidence that we had cultural propagation of knowledge among our early ancestors for over three millions of years via the Oldowan and Acheulean stone industries. Since hunter gatherers naturally passed along knowledge of the safety of edible plants, at what point did they figure out how to…

How long have Homo Sapiens been around? More or less than three million years?
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