HP have updated their printers to ban ‘non-HP’ cartridges • Hacker News Board

Re: HP have updated their printers to ban ‘non-HP’ cartridges

#51

Post by userbinator » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 2:42 AM UTC

The cat-and-mouse game escalates one more step...

Who remembers the Epson chip resetters? Those were glorified EEPROM writers and the chips on cartridges back then were simple EEPROMs. (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25054177 )

Now, I believe there's nontrivial crypto involved; but just like other attempts at locking them out, expect the aftermarket to already be hard at work cracking this. It's probably legal to do so, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexmark_International,_Inc._v.....

Re: HP have updated their printers to ban ‘non-HP’ cartridges

#52

Post by 2muchcoffeeman » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 2:42 AM UTC

coda_ wrote: post #28

lchengify wrote: post #23

For those of you who haven't already, I highly recommend just biting the bullet and switching from HP to Brother for your home printing needs. I was a HP customer for decades . I had models going back to perforated paper dot-matrix printers. Finally last year I had a down-and-out fight to get my HP to do a basic task, and I bit the bullet and ordered a Brother at the recommendation of my friend. My mfc-l3750cdw Broth…

I also like my brother, but it will attempt to detect and reject non-authentic ink. I don't update mine anymore because the last time I did, it rejected my cartridges.

I have an old 3170cdw that I got 2nd hand. At least all the consumables and parts that eventually need replacing are easy to get and seem readily available.

Re: HP have updated their printers to ban ‘non-HP’ cartridges

#53

Post by m463 » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 2:43 AM UTC

coda_ wrote: post #28

lchengify wrote: post #23

For those of you who haven't already, I highly recommend just biting the bullet and switching from HP to Brother for your home printing needs. I was a HP customer for decades . I had models going back to perforated paper dot-matrix printers. Finally last year I had a down-and-out fight to get my HP to do a basic task, and I bit the bullet and ordered a Brother at the recommendation of my friend. My mfc-l3750cdw Broth…

I also like my brother, but it will attempt to detect and reject non-authentic ink. I don't update mine anymore because the last time I did, it rejected my cartridges.

I have a brother HL-2360DW circa 2017, with a new brother large-size authentic toner cartridge. I never hooked it to the internet, never updated the firmware. And it started saying low toner even though I've put (far?) less than 250 sheets through it.

There was a way to turn off the low toner warnings, I did it, and seem to be ok, but it makes me wonder.

EDIT: wow, it sells for $449 on amazon. I paid $115 in 2017.

Re: HP have updated their printers to ban ‘non-HP’ cartridges

#54

Post by passwordoops » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 2:45 AM UTC

Algemarin wrote: post #29

What I find notable whenever something like this is in the news, is that these user-hostile features don't just manifest through abiogenesis, or spontaneous generation. User-hostile features are created by people. Just once, I would like to see an AMA by someone who was directly involved in creating a user-hostile feature - whether it's locking down printers or any of the countless other examples that come up on a we…

I had an experience in another industry similar to what printers are doing. We used to use standard, easy-to-source-from-3rd-party 6-port valves on one of our instruments. Customers loved it, since the valve would need servicing now and then with replacement parts but the company president only saw lost recurring service and support revenue. To complement that perception, the VP Engineering decided "our systems should use our parts". So we embarked on "designing" our own new 6-port valves... Which consisted of putting the original 6-port in a welded box with a manifold and calling it our own. Since it was "new" we charged more, while paying less, and obviously telling people that to not use the new system was to void the warranty, and oh by the way, only we can service it. Naturally it came with a firmware that would be recognized as "official". When one of the clients discovered the truth, and provided our support team with evidence proving the new, more expensive valve system gave a slightly poorer performance, management's answer was to threaten to sue. They sold their instrument and went to the competition.

So yeah, it's an anecdotal n of 1, but I would say mostly perceived loss of income, publicly justified as better design

Re: HP have updated their printers to ban ‘non-HP’ cartridges

#55

Post by Jabrov » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 2:46 AM UTC

fwlr wrote: post #30

fwlr wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Printers are very expensive to design, especially if you care about reliably not jamming. Printers are kind of expensive to manufacture. Ink is extremely cheap to manufacture. The printer industry charges a ton for ink and uses the enormous profits from charging for ink to cover the cost of design, and to heavily subsidize the price of printers. Competing with printer companies as a startup looks like this: you burn…

The real answer for disrupting the printer industry is making and selling “cartridge refiller devices”. You sell the ink super cheap (hell, you could give it away for free, it’s that cheap). Your margin is on the refiller devices: the fact that printer companies have made hundreds of different cartridges with a myriad of anti-tamper mechanisms means you offer dozens of different devices, and whenever the big bad prin…

And then you get sued

Re: HP have updated their printers to ban ‘non-HP’ cartridges

#56

Post by neilv » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 2:46 AM UTC

Algemarin wrote: post #29

What I find notable whenever something like this is in the news, is that these user-hostile features don't just manifest through abiogenesis, or spontaneous generation. User-hostile features are created by people. Just once, I would like to see an AMA by someone who was directly involved in creating a user-hostile feature - whether it's locking down printers or any of the countless other examples that come up on a we…

Are the user-hostile features you're talking about different than the third-party tracking that almost every Web site includes (selling out their users' privacy)?

Re: HP have updated their printers to ban ‘non-HP’ cartridges

#57

Post by hakfoo » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 2:50 AM UTC

esperent wrote: post #39

Algemarin wrote: post #29

What I find notable whenever something like this is in the news, is that these user-hostile features don't just manifest through abiogenesis, or spontaneous generation. User-hostile features are created by people. Just once, I would like to see an AMA by someone who was directly involved in creating a user-hostile feature - whether it's locking down printers or any of the countless other examples that come up on a we…

> Just once, I would like to see an AMA by someone who was directly involved in creating a user-hostile feature We don't need an AMA, we already know the answer. Money. The company exists to make money. The fact that it also creates printers is a side effect, not its primary purpose. Once you look at it in this way, there's nothing confusing about user hostile features. They exist to further the primary purpose of th…

I'd argue there's still some interesting math going on there.

PC hardware is still very much an industry of "I'll ask the enthusiast kid down the street what to buy"-- the sort of business where souring a small number of power users can blow back with a lot of lost mainstream consumer sales.

Do they assume that the "enthusiast kid down the street" is already a lost cause and figure he's never even going to buy a HP printer, let alone express his dismay about it to all his friends?

Re: HP have updated their printers to ban ‘non-HP’ cartridges

#58

Post by thewebcount » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 2:54 AM UTC

rwaksmunski wrote: post #8

17 mentions of Ecotank on the 1st page of comments is a little bit sus. That said it's hard to beat older pre chip Brother laser printers for home use. Can often find a used one for around $50.

I just upgraded my computer and now my older Brother can’t scan anymore because Brother isn’t supporting it anymore. (And the app they point you to for scanning also doesn’t support it.) There are some 3rd party tools you can install apparently, but I don’t know if I want to be bothered with how much time that’s likely to take. I don’t want to support them anymore now that they’ve added a chip to their newer models, and I don’t want to have to buy another used one every few years because I keep hitting the end of the support timeframe for those models. It’s a bit frustrating. I’ll probably try the 3rd party software, but that comes with its own issues.

Re: HP have updated their printers to ban ‘non-HP’ cartridges

#59

Post by Panzer04 » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 2:54 AM UTC

Algemarin wrote: post #29

What I find notable whenever something like this is in the news, is that these user-hostile features don't just manifest through abiogenesis, or spontaneous generation. User-hostile features are created by people. Just once, I would like to see an AMA by someone who was directly involved in creating a user-hostile feature - whether it's locking down printers or any of the countless other examples that come up on a we…

Mostly money - We're in the midst of implementing a new payment model. It makes us (the programmers etc) uncomfortable, but generally these sorts of things come from up high, usually with the intent of extracting more profit.

By and large I expect most workers know and dislike that, but ultimately it's a small compromise for them personally - in most cases they may not even use the product they work on. The best they can do usually is object to it, but if people want it done then it'll be done; after all, that's what you're getting paid for.

Re: HP have updated their printers to ban ‘non-HP’ cartridges

#60

Post by hakfoo » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 2:56 AM UTC

fwlr wrote: post #19

leetrout wrote: post #3

Speaking of YC funding disruption where are the home printer startups? Is it just that unprofitable to even try? Or the hardware too difficult or tricky? Or the driver software? Seems like there are zero good alternatives for home printing. HP doing this stuff or making you subscribe to HP+. Brother offering basically zero support. Is epson or canon even competitive for a home printer?

Printers are very expensive to design, especially if you care about reliably not jamming. Printers are kind of expensive to manufacture. Ink is extremely cheap to manufacture. The printer industry charges a ton for ink and uses the enormous profits from charging for ink to cover the cost of design, and to heavily subsidize the price of printers. Competing with printer companies as a startup looks like this: you burn…

I always figured the key was to cut the treadmill.

There's very little difference in how I use a printer today versus 10, 20 years ago, so why can't they just sell me the same basic printer?

I'm sure there's someone on the "edge" of the printer space-- maybe a firm that formerly offered laser printers but moved out of the home market (does Okidata still sell those LED-based printers?) where you could probably buy the rights to a proven design and firmware, maybe even the tooling itself, for basically scrap cost. Polish it up a little- fix the known issues on a 20-year-old design-- and restart the line with an advertised guarantee of long-term availability.