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Popular education in Sweden: much more than you wanted to know (2022)

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Re: Popular education in Sweden: much more than you wanted to know (2022)

#51

Post by gameman144 »

low_tech_love wrote: post #47
argiopetech wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those "who want to learn it from them" must make the assessment. Any less is censorship of the teacher, which, in my mind, is an unqualified evil. This is not to say that the material learnt/shared is an unqualified good. The ability of each individual to freely exchange that knowledge and assess it in their context is.

But then how would you separate, for example, teaching from preaching?

I'd argue preaching is (or rather, ought to be) teaching, so no need to separate them.

Totally fine to restrict subjects that can be taught in schools though, including religion and the like.

Re: Popular education in Sweden: much more than you wanted to know (2022)

#52

Post by jks »

dragoncrab wrote: post #2

Is there anything similar in other European countries as well?

In Finland there are "kansanopisto" that are a little like the Swedish ones described in the article but with less resources. I spent my final year of upper secondary school at one of them (https://www.paivola.fi) which hosts a math enrichment programme, but that one is quite unique.

That particular institute got started in the late 1800s to educate farmers with an ideology similar to the Swedish system of the article, but by the 1990s it had mostly language courses. (Didn't get into university? Come study Spanish for a gap year, we'll make a trip to Spain at the end.) Currently in addition to the math programme they seem to teach several subjects with a kind of unofficial arrangement with universities. (Didn't make it to law school/psychology/teacher school? Come study exactly that for a year to improve your chances in the next admissions round, with some credit probably accepted toward your eventual university degree.)

Re: Popular education in Sweden: much more than you wanted to know (2022)

#53

Post by embedded_hiker »

somewhereoutth wrote: post #32
rhn_mk1 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you're comparing the situation outlined in the article to somewhere you're familiar with when you say 'bookish' is 'uncool'. Where is that?

Gen X Anglosphere

And long before Gen X.

Re: Popular education in Sweden: much more than you wanted to know (2022)

#54

Post by tqi »

argiopetech wrote: post #43
tqi wrote: post #37

> A good educational system should have three purposes: it should provide all who want to learn with access to available resources at any time in their lives; empower all who want to share what they know to find those who want to learn it from them; and, finally, furnish all who want to present an issue to the public with the opportunity to make their challenge known. I wonder if this quote is still something we beli…

Those "who want to learn it from them" must make the assessment. Any less is censorship of the teacher, which, in my mind, is an unqualified evil. This is not to say that the material learnt/shared is an unqualified good. The ability of each individual to freely exchange that knowledge and assess it in their context is.

> Any less is censorship of the teacher, which, in my mind, is an unqualified evil.

I'm not sure if I agree. I understand the intent is that individuals should in turn be able reject those teachings in their context, but that feels disconnected from the reality of our society. Ultimately I think it comes down to whether you think policies should be made based on intent or outcomes. If, for example, WhatsApp knows that individuals "teaching" about the dangers posed by an ethnic minority, and that those teachings would result in genocide regardless of how much helper text / warning flags you place around the content, I think it would be a moral imperative for them to remove that content.

Of course, who gets to make that decision and how you measure outcomes (what is worse, and for whom?) is a whole can of worms, so I definitely have reservations, but ultimately I believe that a) some limits are necessary, b) there can be genuine disagreement on where that line should be drawn and c) there is no such thing as an unqualified evil or good.

Re: Popular education in Sweden: much more than you wanted to know (2022)

#55

Post by nothing0001 »

jacquesm wrote: post #13
yobbo wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Libraries are already free. The money here is supposedly used for coffee (or whatever) while meeting and discussing books.

Literacy goes a lot further than just access to a mountain of books, having the opportunity to meet with your peers and others to discuss those books makes it a much richer experience than reading alone. It can also serve as a reality check on some of the stuff that you find in books, and can help by pointing to other interesting reading material. Books are great, books plus other people is gold.

I find a little sad that many people could change books and sharing experiences with others with using tools such as chatgpt. Those tools could be used to not discuss things like education and guide people to follow the agenda of the fine-tunnings authorities.

Re: Popular education in Sweden: much more than you wanted to know (2022)

#56

Post by bsder »

tqi wrote: post #37

> A good educational system should have three purposes: it should provide all who want to learn with access to available resources at any time in their lives; empower all who want to share what they know to find those who want to learn it from them; and, finally, furnish all who want to present an issue to the public with the opportunity to make their challenge known. I wonder if this quote is still something we beli…

> Implied here is that "learning" and "sharing what they know" are unqualified good. But I think there is lots of that on the internet these days... much of it bad.

There is a vast difference between "On the Internet" and "In person".

"In person" means that your idea has to have enough critical mass in a local area to catch on. If your idea only appeals to 0.01% of people, you're just not going to come in contact with another like-minded individual in your local area. This greatly limits the damage that fringe beliefs can do. On the other hand, if you are the person with the minority belief or interest, you're isolated.

"On the Internet" there is no such geographic limiter. So, if you are the one in the minority, you can find kindred spirits. Unfortunately, very fringe people can find like minded individuals and congregate.

It would be very nice if we could harness the positives of both while minimizing the negatives. I'm not sure that's possible, though.

Re: Popular education in Sweden: much more than you wanted to know (2022)

#57

Post by bsder »

somewhereoutth wrote: post #3

Excellent article, and a very interesting look into how a society may accelerate its development. Perhaps maker spaces are born of a similar ethos, though of course very stem driven. Unfortunately it seems that as formal education has become more institutionalised and more necessary as a marker for employability, doing anything remotely 'bookish' in your free time has become almost definitively 'uncool'. A shame.

> Perhaps maker spaces are born of a similar ethos, though of course very stem driven.

Huh? Most makerspaces are not at all STEM driven.

In the US, most makerspaces are driven by woodworking. Metalworking and 3D printing generally take up the next tier in a makerspace of usage. Electronics and STEM stuff is generally the bottom of utilization, sadly.

It's simply really hard to come up with good electronics projects that don't also need a pretty solid software background nowadays. That's just really a step too far for most people.

By contrast, there are lots of projects that a couple of hours in a woodshop makes something interesting and semi-useful.

Re: Popular education in Sweden: much more than you wanted to know (2022)

#58

Post by memling »

bazoom42 wrote: post #27
leobg wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Bild” is indeed “image”. Though one also says “bilden” to mean “generate”, “create”, or “consist of”. For instance, one might us it to say that two people “bilden” a team (i.e. make up a team).

It was the “image of God ” part I doubted.

Not conclusive, but Luther uses the word Bild in his translation of Genesis 1. That it may have had or acquired the meaning pretty easily given the Bible's formative currency in those years.

Re: Popular education in Sweden: much more than you wanted to know (2022)

#59

Post by xpe »

xpe wrote: post #25

What can we read to get a fair overview of Swedish culture with regards to intellectual curiousity, education, conformism (I've seen this claimed but have no firsthand experience), and so on? Here is one starting point: "Small Facts and Large Issues: The Anthropology of Contemporary Scandinavian Society" : https://www.jstor.org/stable/2155886 ... I haven't read it yet. I like the anthropological point of view though.

One anecdote. One person I trust view most Swedes as much more open minded than most Americans.

Re: Popular education in Sweden: much more than you wanted to know (2022)

#60

Post by tremon »

bazoom42 wrote: post #6

> Bildung etymologically refers to shaping yourself in the image (das Bild) of God Is this really true? The liked wikipedia page does not seem to support that.

The German wikipedia page does (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bildung#Begriffsbildung):

> Der Begriff Bildung wurde von dem mittelalterlichen Theologen und Philosophen Meister Eckhart in die Deutsche Sprache eingeführt. Er bedeutete für ihn das „Erlernen von Gelassenheit“ und wurde als „Gottessache“ angesehen, „damit der Mensch Gott ähnlich werde“

The term Bildung was introduced in the German language by the medieval theologist and philosopher Father Eckhart. To him, it referred to "acquiring through inner peace" and was considered godly: "so that man can become more like God".

(excuse my German reading skill, it's not as godlike as I'd like it to be)

That said, the equivalent Dutch word is "vorming", which translates literally as "shaping", so I don't the concept itself is religious in nature. As alluded (but not explicitly said) on the English page, I think the word lost its religious connotation by Humboldt's inclusion in his education model.

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