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China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

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Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#51

Post by tannhauser23 »

yogthos wrote: post #41
roenxi wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Chinese people are probably misinformed. One of the things that stands out from Western (and Indian) experiments in democracy is they are noisy, boisterous, have very loud special interest groups and are appallingly bad at keeping secrets. Leaders spend a lot of time in front of huge crowds. There simply isn't enough political chatter coming out of China to support the idea that there is a healthy democratic proc…

Seems to me that it's far more likely that you are the one who is misinformed as opposed to people living in China. Not sure what this lack of political chatter that you allude to is to be honest. Anybody who actually follows politics in China knows this statement to be utter nonsense.

Do me a favor. Go to China and start an opposition party. Or hand out flyers in Beijing criticizing Xi’s third term. When you come back from the gulags in couple decades, tell us about your experience with Chinese democracy.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#52

Post by s1artibartfast »

thevagrant wrote: post #47
s1artibartfast wrote: post #40

It seems like most people in this thread missing the point of this statement. Section 2 is a clear condemnation of NATO expansion into Ukraine. >The security of a region should not be achieved by strengthening or expanding military blocs. I don't think there is any other way to read this. Russia is not expanding a military Bloc . A "military bloc" is a set of countries with military alliance. This is perfectly in lin…

Again, Ukraine isn't part of NATO. NATO is a defensive alliance. So you are saying China don't want their neighbors to defend themselves?

>So you are saying China don't want their neighbors to defend themselves?

Absolutely not, and especially so if those neighbors were aligning with the USA. Do you think China would be excited about Taiwan or Mongolia forming a military alliance with the USA? Even if it is defensive?

Read point 2. It clearly condemns defensive Alliances.

“The security of a region should not be achieved by strengthening or expanding military blocs.“

...

“All parties should oppose the pursuit of one's own security at the cost of others' security, prevent bloc confrontation, and work together for peace and stability on the Eurasian Continent.“

I can't think of another way to read this

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#53

Post by yogthos »

grayhatter wrote: post #49
yogthos wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, censorship makes people unable to see whether their lives are good or not. A real genius argument you've mustered here. You should also let people like Manning and Assange know that they shouldn't be worried about being sent into an interment camp.

> Ah yes, censorship makes people unable to see whether their lives are good or not. A real genius argument you've mustered here. Wow, you're just going to be all sorts of mean today... feels bad... But I think maybe I was unclear. I wasn't claiming the majority of the population in China was unhappy with their lives, or that we shouldn't believe them when they claim to be happy. My point was, it's bad policy to beli…

You're trying to claim that people in China can't understand whether their government works for them or not. This is a profoundly absurd claim. The fact that you don't understand that is absolutely shocking.

Here's a Harvard research center study of long-term public opinion survey showing that Chinese citizens overwhelmingly approve of their government

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-sur...

Here's a summary of studies finding that China is in fact more democratic than the US

https://en.news-front.info/2020/06/27/studies-have-shown-tha...

Another Harvard study https://ash.harvard.edu/publications/understanding-ccp-resil...

And another survey https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2021/0218/Vilif...

All of these western sources, and all agree on this point.

Furthermore, why don't we take a look at the tangible outcomes of the policies of the CPC to see why the government enjoys such high support, and why people in China consider their country democratic. Chinese government practically eliminated extreme poverty. https://news.cgtn.com/news/2019-10-17/Graphics-Ending-China-...

In fact, China is the only place in a world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening. If we take China out of the equation poverty actually increased in real terms:

    If we take just one country, China, out of the global poverty equation, then even under the $1.90 poverty standard we find that the extreme poverty headcount is the exact same as it was in 1981.
https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/07/5-myths-about-global-...

    The $1.90/day (2011 PPP) line is not an adequate or in any way satisfactory level of consumption; it is explicitly an extreme measure. Some analysts suggest that around $7.40/day is the minimum necessary to achieve good nutrition and normal life expectancy, while others propose we use the US poverty line, which is $15.
https://www.cgdev.org/blog/12-things-we-can-agree-about-glob...

China also massively invests in infrastructure. They used more concrete in 3 years than US in all of 20th century https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2014/12/05/china-...

China has built 27,000km of high speed rail in a decade https://www.railjournal.com/passenger/high-speed/ten-years-2...

90% of families in the country own their home giving China one of the highest home ownership rates in the world. What’s more is that 80% of these homes are owned outright, without mortgages or any other leans. https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard/2016/03/30/how-peop...

Real wage (i.e. the wage adjusted for the prices you pay) has gone up 4x in the past 25 years, more than any other country https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw8SvK0E5dI

This is staggering considering it's the most populous country on the planet.

Social mobility in China is also far higher than it is in US according to NYT https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/11/18/world/asia/ch...

This is what a government that actually works in the interests of the majority looks like.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#54

Post by yogthos »

grayhatter wrote: post #46
yogthos wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is plenty of government censorship happening in US as well. Entire books have been written on this subject. I'm not aware of any country that doesn't have censorship in practice. I think the idea that people living in a country understand their own lives worse than an outsider is beyond absurd. People can certainly understand whether they are happy with their lives and whether their quality of life is improving…

> There is plenty of government censorship happening in US as well. Entire books have been written on this subject Interesting, can you cite any of these books? I don't believe they contradict my understand that censorship in China is so drastically different from the US that the comparison becomes dishonest. > I think the idea that people living in a country understand their own lives worse than an outsider is beyon…

Here are just a couple of books documenting censorship and public opinion manipulation that happens in US

https://archive.org/details/inventingrealit000pare

https://archive.org/details/pdfy-NekqfnoWIEuYgdZl

>My claim was, in part because it's so hard to get reliable information inside from China given the extreme government censorship; that the opinions from the population about the quality shouldn't be given the normal amount of weight you'd give opinions about the government from a country that has strong protections and freedoms for the press.

Then you surely will give weight to western sources, such as Harvard, saying this is the case?

Here's a Harvard research center study of long-term public opinion survey showing that Chinese citizens overwhelmingly approve of their government

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-sur...

https://en.news-front.info/2020/06/27/studies-have-shown-tha...

https://ash.harvard.edu/publications/understanding-ccp-resil...

https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2021/0218/Vilif...

>If you disagree, and believe they're perfectly informed, can you explain why there's so many articles, information, and evidence showing the CCP attempting to coverup information and events?

You seriously need me to explain to you why there ism assive propaganda in US against its peer competitor? The very fact that you can't even spell the name of the party, which is Communist Party of China (CPC) correctly says volumes. It's like if I insisted on calling your country ASU.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#55

Post by thevagrant »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #52
thevagrant wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, Ukraine isn't part of NATO. NATO is a defensive alliance. So you are saying China don't want their neighbors to defend themselves?

>So you are saying China don't want their neighbors to defend themselves? Absolutely not, and especially so if those neighbors were aligning with the USA. Do you think China would be excited about Taiwan or Mongolia forming a military alliance with the USA? Even if it is defensive? Read point 2. It clearly condemns defensive Alliances. “The security of a region should not be achieved by strengthening or expanding mil…

It's a weak argument when the aggressor invaded. If we go with that line of thinking, then Russia "invaded" to "defend themselves".

Should we complain about homeowners installing locks and security cameras on their houses?

“The security of a region should not be achieved by strengthening or expanding military blocs.“

Perhaps then China doesn't need to build military bases in South China Sea?

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#56

Post by yogthos »

mindslight wrote: post #50
yogthos wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is plenty of government censorship happening in US as well. Entire books have been written on this subject. I'm not aware of any country that doesn't have censorship in practice. I think the idea that people living in a country understand their own lives worse than an outsider is beyond absurd. People can certainly understand whether they are happy with their lives and whether their quality of life is improving…

> I think the idea that people living in a country understand their own lives worse than an outsider is beyond absurd I'd say the exact opposite - those in a system become desensitized to its failings, and steeped in societal myths. One needs to be outside of that to have a frame of reference to compare anything to. Your argument seems to hinge upon material wealth. That can carry a lot of water for a system's failin…

What system failings are those precisely?

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#57

Post by yogthos »

tannhauser23 wrote: post #51
yogthos wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems to me that it's far more likely that you are the one who is misinformed as opposed to people living in China. Not sure what this lack of political chatter that you allude to is to be honest. Anybody who actually follows politics in China knows this statement to be utter nonsense.

Do me a favor. Go to China and start an opposition party. Or hand out flyers in Beijing criticizing Xi’s third term. When you come back from the gulags in couple decades, tell us about your experience with Chinese democracy.

Democracy isn't about having more parties, it's about having a government that represents the working majority. China has settled on a political path which is communism, this is why there are communist parties in China, while in US you have capitalist parties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_C...

Evidently, you weren't even aware of the fact that there are multiple parties in the country.

Meanwhile, absolutely hilarious of you to talk about gulags when US runs concentration camps for kids on its border https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/us-detention-child-migrants

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#58

Post by s1artibartfast »

thevagrant wrote: post #55
s1artibartfast wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So you are saying China don't want their neighbors to defend themselves? Absolutely not, and especially so if those neighbors were aligning with the USA. Do you think China would be excited about Taiwan or Mongolia forming a military alliance with the USA? Even if it is defensive? Read point 2. It clearly condemns defensive Alliances. “The security of a region should not be achieved by strengthening or expanding mil…

It's a weak argument when the aggressor invaded. If we go with that line of thinking, then Russia "invaded" to "defend themselves". Should we complain about homeowners installing locks and security cameras on their houses? “The security of a region should not be achieved by strengthening or expanding military blocs.“ Perhaps then China doesn't need to build military bases in South China Sea?

I'm not interested in debating Russia's motivations. I'm talking about what China literally said they oppose. They said that they oppose military alliances.

You might disagree with China's perspective or think they are hypocrites and that's fine, but that doesn't change the point of what they said

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#59

Post by ProjectArcturis »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #40

It seems like most people in this thread missing the point of this statement. Section 2 is a clear condemnation of NATO expansion into Ukraine. >The security of a region should not be achieved by strengthening or expanding military blocs. I don't think there is any other way to read this. Russia is not expanding a military Bloc . A "military bloc" is a set of countries with military alliance. This is perfectly in lin…

Shocker, China opposes NATO.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#60

Post by mopsi »

yogthos wrote: post #57
tannhauser23 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do me a favor. Go to China and start an opposition party. Or hand out flyers in Beijing criticizing Xi’s third term. When you come back from the gulags in couple decades, tell us about your experience with Chinese democracy.

Democracy isn't about having more parties, it's about having a government that represents the working majority. China has settled on a political path which is communism, this is why there are communist parties in China, while in US you have capitalist parties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_C... Evidently, you weren't even aware of the fact that there are multiple parties in the country. Me…

> Evidently, you weren't even aware of the fact that there are multiple parties in the country.

That's quite telling. People are often surprised that East Germany had multiple parties too; surprised for the same reason.

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