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B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

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51–60 of 148 posts

Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#51
post #10

As soon as an article states you can use “product manager” and “project manager” interchangeably, you can immediately assume the author has no idea what they’re talking about. Convenient this article did that early on, saves everyone a lot of time.

> As soon as an article states you can use “product manager” and “project manager” interchangeably This is quite common. Lots of ex-project managers are now called product managers or scrum masters. But they're actually project managers.

Yeah but the fact that OP buys into the trope that they're the same thing kinda speaks to the point that they have no idea what a PM actually does.

Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#52
post #32

Devs working directly with customers will always be better than relying on PMs to do it. But it's hard to find devs with the soft skills needed, and are willing to do so.

Those people are generally referred to as product managers

This guy gets it...

Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#53

PM to me means communicators. They free developers from doing such social work. Developers in most case is the implementers, not communicators. The issue is, what's the scope of an efficient PM. Should they involve in product development process ? Should they involve in the UX design process ?

My motto as a PM when talking to my engineering teams is "I go to meetings so that you don't have to" =)

They seem to appreciate my sacrifice...

Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#54
post #9

This is a poorly written article that is all over the place. It’s evident the author had a horrible experience with a PM. Their description of a PM is a description of a PM who’s doing their job poorly. Qualitative research at any company is critical and poor qual research (interviewing the wrong people, asking the wrong types of questions, etc) will yield poor insights as is the case here. Any PM working at a B2B st…

Well I agree that this is poorly written (I wrote it). The point of the article is not that companies shouldnt have PM, but that you shouldnt make them owner of the innovation in a B2B context. Of course if you start with the assumption of "Good PMs" it will work, but you will rarely find these "good PMs"

100% what others are saying. This is a hot take rant with bad arguments based on an experience with a bad product manager (or maybe you're just difficult to work with and your ideas aren't as innovative or as good as you think).

I can easily flip the script and say "Devs at B2B shouldn't be anything more than oompah-loompahs" or "UI designers shouldn't be allowed to give ideas" based on a couple of my own isolated experiences.

You want to be taken seriously? Don't rant and explain what structure/methods would be more appropriate for a B2B business that would balance the need for innovation that makes users happy with keeping the paying gatekeepers willing to keep paying

Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#55

This is a poorly written article that is all over the place. It’s evident the author had a horrible experience with a PM. Their description of a PM is a description of a PM who’s doing their job poorly. Qualitative research at any company is critical and poor qual research (interviewing the wrong people, asking the wrong types of questions, etc) will yield poor insights as is the case here. Any PM working at a B2B st…

Presenting a dichotomy of "Developers aren't social and product managers are" says a lot more between the lines about the author than the actual words advance any argument.

Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#56
post #10

As soon as an article states you can use “product manager” and “project manager” interchangeably, you can immediately assume the author has no idea what they’re talking about. Convenient this article did that early on, saves everyone a lot of time.

What are these two roles about? What differentiates them? Asking genuinely as someone not in the tech sector.

Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#57
I immediately thought. Tech culture has become... "Im upset. Im going to rage write a blog post. Im going to publish it on another site. Now I somewhat have to manage the blow back." Why? What an overly complex way to vent, but as a "PM", exactly what Ive come to expect. My recommendation would have been to vent to a friend in private, research says "over beer" works best...

Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#58
post #9

This is a poorly written article that is all over the place. It’s evident the author had a horrible experience with a PM. Their description of a PM is a description of a PM who’s doing their job poorly. Qualitative research at any company is critical and poor qual research (interviewing the wrong people, asking the wrong types of questions, etc) will yield poor insights as is the case here. Any PM working at a B2B st…

Well I agree that this is poorly written (I wrote it). The point of the article is not that companies shouldnt have PM, but that you shouldnt make them owner of the innovation in a B2B context. Of course if you start with the assumption of "Good PMs" it will work, but you will rarely find these "good PMs"

In this whole article the word "problem" is only written once, and it's in the line "the problem with product managers is".

Given you don't understand that the core pillar of the product manager role is to be the owner of the problem space, I'm not sure how qualified you are to comment on how valuable our role is or isn't.

Discovery isn't about decided what does or doesn't get built, it's about discovering what the real problem is that your customers need solved (almost like it's in the name).

If your PM is good at their job, the answer to that question should be pretty clear once they're done. That's not them "telling you what to do", if you want to go build a solution to a problem nobody actually has, you have fun with that.

And if you PM is defining solutions and telling your team how/what to build, that's on you to push back and take ownership of the part of the process that you're meant to be owning.

A lot of PM's end up overreaching because they're just tired of there being a leadership vacuum and nobody willing to fill it. Trust me, we're busy enough, we don't want the extra work.

Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#59

Why has every product person I've worked with been obsessed with controlling teams and communication rather than obsessing over the customer and the market? Friends say the same thing too. It makes me roll my eyes whenever someone retorts "you just need to hire the /good/ PMs" Even my worst sales/tech colleagues, I've never had as much conflict and annoyance as with product people

I got into product management maybe 10 years ago. At that time, it was more the bridge between sales and engineering, and you manage the technical marketing. You let each department work the way they work best and the roadmap is collaborative. Some places still have that but they are dwindling.

But I'd say over the past 5 years or so, wherever I go the expectation is that the PM must put their nose in everything and I'd have to gently, if diplomatically explain why that's dumb. I think it's the whole "the PM is the CEO of the product" which is stupid. The CEO is the CEO.

Take a look at most PM job adverts now. The expectations are insane and something only a go-getting type A MBA control-freak type would go for, with the expecting that you play an intimate role in low-level architecture decisions to leading webinars with end-users and everything in-between.

Who wants that? I might as well go start a company.

Terrible blog post BTW. Poorly written and badly developed arguments

Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#60
Most good software out there were started by engineers and not by product managers and engineer only products are generally great and liked by people. Linux and the ecosystem is one example.

I am not sure what really happens after Product Managers come in that the product takes a dive. I have seen this repeat almost everywhere. You start with a small team of engineers and have a product that people love, now you need more engineers and hence you bring in a manager and managers almost always demand to have a product manager and the whole thing devolves into a game of promotion.

Doctors are lead by Senior Doctors, Lawyers are lead by Senior lawyers, whereas Engineers need handholding that also sucks the very joy out of engineering.

In my opinion, What could be more beneficial is to have Product Managers who also are senior engineers and who atleast do hands-on development 10% of their time. This is exactly how even the senior most doctors still perform surgeries.

unless it is customized B2B or B2G, where the engineers are not really interested in the mundane chores of the nitty gritty of a drop-down or having to have constant arguments on what the button should be called, you likely dont need a ProductMgr.

The other thing that happens as soon as productMgrs enter is engineers let go of the ownership of the product. The back button doesn't work? well good luck, that was not in the PMs requirements. now raise more unnecessary tickets and show the improved velocity.

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