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A hacking and disinformation team meddling in elections

theguardian.com

51–60 of 96 posts

Re: A hacking and disinformation team meddling in elections

#51
post #45
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better article than this. The sad thing is we’re probably trivially close to the tech needed for direct democracy, but the powers that be use tech to confuse and supplant democratic institutions and propose their authoritarian rule.

I don't want direct democracy: the problem of voting shenanigans and corruption just expands from a known set of elected officials who vote on laws to...everyone. Aside from that, people in aggregate just aren't that bright: I don't want them making decisions much more substantial than what they'll have for dinner, much less voting on issues that affect me.

The argument that people aren't to be trusted with a more direct democracy always falls flat to me. The alternative is power concentrated to a few people which introduces a risk for developing a ruling class, an aristocracy, or plutocracy. Arguing against direct democracy feels elitist, like only certain people should be trusted with actual power.

The truth is half of the population is dumber than the average, but the other half is smarter than average. Groups of people are susceptible to bias just like individuals. At least when people vote we know they are considering their own interests.

Re: A hacking and disinformation team meddling in elections

#52
post #38
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this sarcasm, or is there a subset of people here who truly believe that the Twitter “files” prove the significant investigative effort, offensive actions by US Cyber Command against the IRA, direct acknowledgement of the activities by Yevgeny Prigozhin, additional investigation and confirmation by private security companies that all echoed the same, highly-believable conclusion were fabricated in a coordinated ef…

[flagged]

Absolutely agree, I've read countless articles that are clearly written to make readers believe that Russia is guilty of this or that, but almost never is there a single shred of evidence, it's always "linked to" Russia, the link typically being the opinion of some anonymous informant. I honestly can't understand how so many people buy this story year after year, other than the fact that propaganda clearly works.

Re: A hacking and disinformation team meddling in elections

#53
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wasn't 'Russia meddling' a planted story by US domestic intelligence, as has come to light in the Twitter files?

“Domestic intelligence”? You mean the FBI? US intelligence agencies by law do not operate within the US. Did the Russians interfere in the US election? This is unquestionably true. The DNC did not leak their strategy docs by themselves. Was Russian interference in the 2016 election decisive? Highly unlikely. Imo, it would be generous to say the effect was marginal at best. In hindsight the whole thing was pretty stup…

> US intelligence agencies by law do not operate within the US.

The NSA (a US intelligence organization) has verifiably been conducting widespread surveillance of US citizens on US soil for decades.

Re: A hacking and disinformation team meddling in elections

#54
post #38
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this sarcasm, or is there a subset of people here who truly believe that the Twitter “files” prove the significant investigative effort, offensive actions by US Cyber Command against the IRA, direct acknowledgement of the activities by Yevgeny Prigozhin, additional investigation and confirmation by private security companies that all echoed the same, highly-believable conclusion were fabricated in a coordinated ef…

[flagged]

I apologize if my comment appeared to be disingenuous. I would like to understand why you believe that Russian election meddling did not occur and how this belief formed based on the information contained in the Twitter files, which I have admittedly only partially read.

Let's start with a concrete example, like the 2016 DNC hack and subsequent document leaks. US intelligence agencies, and private cybersecurity companies that helped handle the response and investigation, have all claimed with high confidence that an offensive cyber unit within the Russian military had carried out the attack. I assume you are familiar with this example and the corresponding reports/indicment, but I would recommend skimming the indictment for a refresher (https://www.justice.gov/file/1080281/download) while paying particular attention to parts that relate to the observable events that implied election interference-related motives, like:

  on or about April 15, 2016, the Conspirators searched one hacked DCCC computer for terms that included “hillary,” “cruz,” and “trump.” The Conspirators also copied select DCCC folders, including “Benghazi Investigations.” The Conspirators targeted computers containing information such as opposition research and field operation plans for the 2016 elections.
With this example as a jumping-off point, here are some questions off the top of my head:

- Do you believe (1) that this incident did not occur, (2) that the incident did occur but was a case of misattribution, (3) that the incident did occur, and was executed by the GRU, but was not done as part of a broader Russian government effort related to the US election, (3) that the incident did occur [...], but that the broader effort does not constitute election interference?

- Do the Twitter files include any evidence that the indictment, conclusions of the federal investigation, and conclusions of the private investigations were false? This is a genuine question, I read the early tweets but did not believe continuing to read the later ones was worth the time. Twitter & this incident were intertwined from the very beginning, as the GRU had created a fake Twitter persona for leaking documents, so I would assume there are some files somewhere inside Twitter related to this.

- Your first comment rhetorically implied that "Russia meddling" was a fabricated story, while your second comment changes the framing and refers to "material Russian interference." Is the root of this disagreement that you believe a successful outcome is required for activities to be deemed election meddling/interference? If so, what do you think a reasonable definition of "outcome" is in this context - the ultimate outcome of the election, the outcome of a single voter's time spent in ballot box, somewhere in between? Is your belief that meddling was attempted, but not successful and therefore not ultimately meddling? Are you aware of any estimates of impact of claimed meddling, and/or the methodologies used for estimating it? Personally, my answer to the last question is "no," and I think the most likely case is that the election outcome would be identical in a parallel universe where Russian does not exist, but I personally don't believe that makes the issue significantly less concerning. Your first time doing anything is usually pretty sloppy.

- If yes to the above, let's say you were to learn that a foreign government was preparing for an election interference campaign related to an upcoming US presidential election. Would you find this problematic enough to warrant government response and public awareness via media coverage, even though you do not yet know if the operation will be successful? If government response and public awareness are important in this scenario, are they not also important in similar scenarios where our awareness of the campaign does not come until after the campaign has concluded?

- Taking the above a few steps back: would you consider efforts coordinated by a foreign government with the express goal of influencing the outcome of a US election to be election meddling? If not, does your opinion change if the efforts intentionally used misinformation as a weapon for achieving the goal? If still not, does your opinion change if the efforts are performed covertly with the intention of avoiding attribution? Are there any additional factors that you would consider requisite here?

- If yes to any of the questions in the above bullet, other the last one, then do you simply believe that the Russian government did not coordinate any such activities, including covert activities that made use of false "information" the actors knew to be false, occurred at all throughout the past two election cycles?

- If yes to the above, can this belief can be entirely supported by the information in the Twitter files, as your first comment implies? As in, did the Twitter files alone contained sufficient information that all claims, reports, and associated details of Russian election interference were fabricated?

- In making this claim, are you confident that you are sufficiently aware of the various information and evidence that has been released, by both government and private entities, that was used to back claims of Russian meddling? If not, is there anything else you have read or learned that helped you become comfortable with claiming this information and evidence were false/fabricated even though you are not aware of what the full scope of the information and evidence is?

- Do you have any theories as to how private companies were coerced or tricked by the US intelligence communities into release false conclusions that supported the government's desired narrative? They must have had to be doing significantly more than second-hand moderation of tweets if your claim is valid, so do you have an idea of what else they were doing?

Re: A hacking and disinformation team meddling in elections

#55
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this sarcasm, or is there a subset of people here who truly believe that the Twitter “files” prove the significant investigative effort, offensive actions by US Cyber Command against the IRA, direct acknowledgement of the activities by Yevgeny Prigozhin, additional investigation and confirmation by private security companies that all echoed the same, highly-believable conclusion were fabricated in a coordinated ef…

No, the previous comment brought up Trump, which is clearly alluding to "Russian collusion". I'm fine with distaste for Trump and the realities of disinformation campaigns, but the focus of the Twitter files in this regard is clearly specific to the false Russia Trump connection propagated by Dem polticians and leftists.

  > but the focus of the Twitter files in this regard is clearly specific to the false Russia Trump connection propagated by Dem polticians and leftists.
Which makes the comment I was replying to (which is the comment one level above mine, not two levels above mine) even more incorrect, as it claims that the Twitter files prove that Russian meddling did not occur, which is a claim orders of magnitude broader than the claim that Trump-Russian collusion did not occur.

Re: A hacking and disinformation team meddling in elections

#56
post #45
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better article than this. The sad thing is we’re probably trivially close to the tech needed for direct democracy, but the powers that be use tech to confuse and supplant democratic institutions and propose their authoritarian rule.

I don't want direct democracy: the problem of voting shenanigans and corruption just expands from a known set of elected officials who vote on laws to...everyone. Aside from that, people in aggregate just aren't that bright: I don't want them making decisions much more substantial than what they'll have for dinner, much less voting on issues that affect me.

> Aside from that, people in aggregate just aren't that bright: I don't want them making decisions much more substantial than what they'll have for dinner, much less voting on issues that affect me.

If you evaluate it on a longer timeline, people achieve a greater political intelligence because of increased voter participation and a quicker policy feedback loop.

Yeah, collectively, humans are still idiots. That being said, we do have a decent amount of technological promise and maybe just enough idealism in our blood to sustain the species. It's probably worth a try.

Re: A hacking and disinformation team meddling in elections

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what the USSR had. Didn't work so well. A secret ballot is a major requirement for democracy.

There was one option on the ballot, I think that was more the problem. Having choice and not having someone with a gun escort you to the ballot box are bigger requirements. If there were no repercussions, voting could totally be open, don't you think?

Do you really want the thug in power to know you didn't vote for him?

Re: A hacking and disinformation team meddling in elections

#58
post #2

First it was Russia meddling with elections (Trump, Brexit), now it's a team led by an ex Israeli special forces guy — which reminds me a bit of the NSO Group story. You know what is terrifying? That upon learning about Russia having a major hand in Western election, nothing concrete was done. In Britain we learned the whole Brexit movement was paid for, and manipulated by Russian money (and it was arguably a crucial…

You missed the update where it was proven that the "Russian meddling" story was fake. The meddling in our elections was the social media companies suppressing the Hunter Biden laptop story right before the election, which the media also claimed was "Russian ops" while Hunter since admitted it was his laptop (full of emails detailing the corruption in his family). The amount of propaganda and lies that is fed to the A…

One minute of googling found these:

- https://www.justice.gov/file/1080281/download

- https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/docu...

- https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf

- https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/docu...

- https://www.justice.gov/archives/sco/file/1373816/download

Spending some time flipping through these (ignore the last two if you please, one heavily redacted and the other focusing on Trump) after reading your comment makes me wonder if we live in two parallel universes that are in the process of converging.

Re: A hacking and disinformation team meddling in elections

#59

US representatives and senators who spoke up against Israeli settlements tended to lose against opponents with AIPAC funding. It's been going on for decades. What we now see is an evolution into social media. Al Jazeera had prepared a story on the tentacles AIPAC had into US politics, but at the time Mohammed bin Salman was making serious noises about invading Qatar,one of the reasons being Al Jazeera's reportage. Th…

Saudi Arabia put up a blockade (with an Arab coalition support) of Qatar for a number of reasons[1], one of which being Al Jazeera’s incendiary (in their opinion) coverage of sensitive topics within the Arab world during the Arab Spring. Saudi Arabia wanted the channel shut down. They never intended to invade and the biggest factor was Qatar’s relationship with Iran (Saudi Arabia’s arch rival). The link with AIPAC? Why would the Saudis, who have no formal diplomatic relations with Israel care? Sounds like a complete made up conspiracy theory.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar_diplomatic_crisis

Re: A hacking and disinformation team meddling in elections

#60
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wasn't 'Russia meddling' a planted story by US domestic intelligence, as has come to light in the Twitter files?

“Domestic intelligence”? You mean the FBI? US intelligence agencies by law do not operate within the US. Did the Russians interfere in the US election? This is unquestionably true. The DNC did not leak their strategy docs by themselves. Was Russian interference in the 2016 election decisive? Highly unlikely. Imo, it would be generous to say the effect was marginal at best. In hindsight the whole thing was pretty stup…

> US intelligence agencies by law do not operate within the US.

Just incredible. Thanks for giving me a hearty laugh. Make sure to refill your pitcher of kool-aid, I see you're running low!

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