Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

I Tried Ketamine to Treat My Depression. It Was Terrifying

washingtonpost.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 73 posts

Re: I Tried Ketamine to Treat My Depression. It Was Terrifying

#51

Post by zdragnar »

to11mtm wrote: post #38
mr_00ff00 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does anyone have info on how/why anti-depressants cause suicidal and homicidal thoughts? I know when it comes to the brain, conventional logic fails, but you would think anti-depressants would stop suicidal thoughts. I googled it and couldn’t find anything.

I'll bite. You have to find the right one, and the right dosage. Otherwise it's like having the wrong air/fuel mix in a car. Unfortunately a lot of doctors will just throw out whatever they think works [0]. A competent MHD, in my experience: - Will use both a patient's verbally provided information as well as lab tests (i.e. neurotransmitter levels) in deciding what to try to prescribe. - For initial starting of medi…

I have never had a doctor test my neurotransmitter levels, and have seen several for depression over the course of my life. For the most part, though, mine has been "mild" enough that I've been treated by general doctors and not psychiatrists (though therapy was involved for a time).

I do wish that there was a shorter check-in period. SSRIs do take 30-45 days to fully kick in, but if they are causing harm, that starts much sooner. I was on two that made me worse, one just gave me headaches for the two weeks that I took it, and the other triggered episodes of intense anger within two days.

Lexapro has been a life saver for me, though I know others for whom it didn't work. I think if I had felt my doctor was more involved than the 6 week check in, I might have felt a bit less alone during some of those times wondering if I was experiencing side effects or simply my illness.

Re: I Tried Ketamine to Treat My Depression. It Was Terrifying

#52

Post by tdehnel »

tarotuser wrote: post #48
tdehnel wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It's a protestant (or WASP- white anglo-saxon protestant) history in the USA that has caused innumerable damage on medicine, education, and what is 'acceptable'. In sex-ed, we're not allowed to talk to children/adolescents that sex is enjoyable. It's against protestant morals. If something feels good, we're not allowed to talk about it. And in that same view, doctors should never give out drugs that make you feel goo…

You are just long-windedly doubling down on your racism.

But your justificationist theory does not explain why people of other races in Nigeria, Qatar, Japan, and every other non-white majority country do not tolerate drugs.

Re: I Tried Ketamine to Treat My Depression. It Was Terrifying

#53

Post by emodendroket »

dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #45
emodendroket wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No but that's an altogether different suggestion from advising depressed people go get high at a rave.

I'm not sure why there's such outrage at the suggestion. The point is that doing something enjoyable, exciting or joyful when taking these drugs is very effective. Maybe raves for a 65 year old is not appropriate, but it can be anything really: being out in nature, being with old friends, going to a concert, etc. Personally I wouldn't take any psychedelic in a doctor's office. That to me would be awful. Doctors (and…

It seems to me the problem is if your situation goes off the rails things can go way worse.

Re: I Tried Ketamine to Treat My Depression. It Was Terrifying

#54

Post by tptacek »

NotPavlovsDog wrote: post #7

Anecdotes and auto-biographies are the easiest to write, as they require the least research and one is already so familiar with the protagonist. It will be nice to see ketamine and psychedelics as part of a toolbox professionals can use for treatment. Many current antidepressants cause strong suicidal and homicidal urges. Look at the widely prescribed citalopram disclaimer. Here's an anecdote: close person to me was…

The relationship between SSRIs and suicidality is well established, as I understand it (but then, the relationship between the condition SSRIs treat and suicidality is even more well established).

I didn't think that was the case with homicidality, though. I went looking, and I found a lot of nutbag sources saying it was the case; that's no surprise, the claim has become a political football in the US (it's an attempted rationale for our mass shooting problem).

Are there very reputable sources to suggest that SSRIs cause homicidal ideation? It's a big claim.

(A quick note: for me, the first Google result is a BMJ journal hit --- but it appears to be a "letter to the editor" type situation, and opens "The FDA admitted in 2007 that SSRIs can cause madness at all ages and that the drugs are very dangerous; otherwise daily monitoring wouldn’t be needed".)

Re: I Tried Ketamine to Treat My Depression. It Was Terrifying

#55

Post by tptacek »

electric_mayhem wrote: post #15

Can’t possibly discount the possibility that this is FUD put out by the pharmaceutical industry to counterweight the increased openness to psychedelics, in part from Pollan’s How to Change Your Mind book and Netflix series. My experience has been that with proper set and setting, I got months of relief from a good psychedelic experience. Shrooms. My first mushroom trip I had tears streaming down my face for something…

I hereby discount the possibility that this article is FUD put out by the pharmaceutical industry.

Re: I Tried Ketamine to Treat My Depression. It Was Terrifying

#56

Post by emodendroket »

htag wrote: post #43
emodendroket wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure you could find some unhappy trip experiences on erowid if you believe it is literally impossible that anyone could have a negative experience.

A piece can be both FUD and true. In fact, often times the more truth that is in the piece the better it can be at sowing fear, uncertainty and doubt. 1. The author admits there was not a long term negative impact on his treatment. 2. People have negative reactions to depression treatments every day. Many of them are much worse. Virtually none of them end up in the washington post. 3. Untreated depression can have a…

Point 4 is untrue.

> Where does that leave me? According to reputable studies, ketamine can be life-changing for a significant majority — as much as three-quarters — of those who take it for depression. That leaves 25 percent, like me, who are not so fortunate.

> I asked John Krystal, chief of psychiatry and behavioral health at Yale-New Haven Hospital and a leading authority on ketamine use for depression, about my experience. “There is a risk that some patients will have extremely upsetting experiences during treatment [with] ketamine or psychedelics,” he said. “The experience of losing control of the form and content of their thought processes and the altered sensory experiences are, themselves, potentially traumatic experiences.”

Re: I Tried Ketamine to Treat My Depression. It Was Terrifying

#57

Post by amanaplanacanal »

dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #45
emodendroket wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No but that's an altogether different suggestion from advising depressed people go get high at a rave.

I'm not sure why there's such outrage at the suggestion. The point is that doing something enjoyable, exciting or joyful when taking these drugs is very effective. Maybe raves for a 65 year old is not appropriate, but it can be anything really: being out in nature, being with old friends, going to a concert, etc. Personally I wouldn't take any psychedelic in a doctor's office. That to me would be awful. Doctors (and…

I’m 66 and going to a rave sounds good to me ;)

Re: I Tried Ketamine to Treat My Depression. It Was Terrifying

#58

Post by seattle_spring »

ethanbond wrote: post #36
emodendroket wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No but that's an altogether different suggestion from advising depressed people go get high at a rave.

Do we know that a clinical setting is advantageous or even neutral for these types of treatments? Ravers/psychedelic community: “it’s the drugs, music, and community, man!” Clinicians for 50 years while people are suffering immensely: “no.” Clinicians after 50 years: “okay, we’ll give you the drugs in our clean room.” Maybe clinical settings are fine, and surely the way to find out is by doing rigorous science, but i…

Racers are some of the most depressed people I've ever met when not raving.

Re: I Tried Ketamine to Treat My Depression. It Was Terrifying

#59

Post by emodendroket »

cinntaile wrote: post #21
emodendroket wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think "this is a possible result of this treatment, as observed one time" is an illegitimate subject of inquiry because it's not a table of statistics.

If you check possible side-effects of very common medicine you can probably find some terrifying stuff that happens to 1 out of 10 million people. If it gets reported on in the media, it would seem a lot more common than it is. To be clear I'm not saying that's the case here, I have no idea.

Sure but would that make it wrong for an essayist to write about it if it happened to them? Writing about personal experiences seems to be a substantial portion of this guy's beat.

Re: I Tried Ketamine to Treat My Depression. It Was Terrifying

#60

Post by ethanbond »

seattle_spring wrote: post #58
ethanbond wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do we know that a clinical setting is advantageous or even neutral for these types of treatments? Ravers/psychedelic community: “it’s the drugs, music, and community, man!” Clinicians for 50 years while people are suffering immensely: “no.” Clinicians after 50 years: “okay, we’ll give you the drugs in our clean room.” Maybe clinical settings are fine, and surely the way to find out is by doing rigorous science, but i…

Racers are some of the most depressed people I've ever met when not raving.

Anecdotally, agreed. I would bet causality goes both directions on this though.
Post reply on HN