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How a heat pump works

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Re: How a heat pump works

#51
post #7

What is going on? Is there a global push to get everyone to switch to heat pumps. It seems that there is heat pump content everywhere. Clearly there is a push. I understand that its for climate benefits but it feels very coordinated. edit: didn't realize the attention I would get. Let me add someone answered my question -- a good product market fit and people talking is probably where the push came from. That said HV…

> Clearly there is a push.

Yeah, tl;dr: fuel price scares and the French nuclear power plant disaster, as well as government regulations.

To expand: most homes traditionally are heated by either burning something fossil (oil, gas, coal), somewhat half-ish renewable (wood pellets, straight chopped wood), by straight electricity (resistive heating) or by heat pumps (air-to-air, ground-to-air, deep-well-to-air aka geothermal). Some homes particularly in urban areas or in close proximity to a large power plant can also be heated by district heating using one of the aforementioned heat sources.

And all of these classes of heaters have their issues:

- Electricity is the easiest of the bunch from a technical point of view, but you're out of luck when the grid fails for whatever reason, you're tied to grid price hikes in some contract models (as people learned the hard way in Texas' last winter spike), there will be fuel burned as part of the generation and frankly resistive heating is wasteful.

- Wood pellet has the problem that the amount of waste (=sawdust) is finite, which means you're chopping down wood that could be used for construction and burning it instead. That is a waste of money and valuable resources when wood is scarce, fine particulate matter causes smell and health issues, and a lot of wood is unethically sourced.

- Solid-wood or coal heaters are difficult to properly fire up - most people fire it wrong (not enough oxygen / too much fuel load), resulting in higher consumption of wood, higher emissions and a danger of soot buildup which is a fire risk. Additionally, many home fires are started by people disposing not-completely-cooled ash or placing flammable objects too close to the oven or exhaust, and still a lot of people die because of carbon monoxide emissions caused by improper handling.

- Oil stinks to hell and beyond, the boilers need an insane amount of maintenance so they don't clog up, you need to ship tanker trucks to homes, there are risks of spillage and contamination, and the same emissions issues of wood apply (plus, oil generates more CO2 than gas per kWh of heat). Also, it's not renewable at all.

- Gas is relatively easy to ship around when there is a gas distribution network in place, it burns relatively clean, but carries an explosion risk and is fossil in origin (at least for the next decades that it will take to build up power-to-gas infrastructure).

In contrast, heat pumps are pretty awesome:

- all they need is a bit of electricity - a good heat pump can achieve up to 4x ratio, meaning it generates 4 kWh of available heat in the home by using 1 kWh of electricity. That also makes off-grid or local generator fallback solutions more feasible - a 20 kW heat-pump boiler needs a 5 kW generator which can be had for a couple hundred dollars instead of a massive generator unit.

- their heat sources (or rather, cold sinks) are renewable - air, local ground loops or deep wells are virtually infinite. That means, as long as your electricity supply is renewable, your heat generation also is renewable.

- Most heat pumps run at 40-ish degrees. That in turn prohibits the use of old-school convection radiators, so most installations with heat pumps tend to use floor heating which needs less energy to achieve a temperature comfortable for humans (our feet are the most sensitive part, but as heat from a convection radiator rises to the top of the room, it needs a lot of energy for a comfortably warm floor).

- they are, particularly when compared to oil heating, extremely small and don't cause emissions

- they don't need much maintenance effort to keep running, and no need for chimney sweepers either

- they don't pose an imminent risk of carbon monoxide poisoning or outright fire

Basically, the only issue heat pumps have is you need specially trained people to install them and they are short in supply at the moment since everyone and their dog got shocked to heaven in the last year of that goddamn war and heat pumps are the objectively best way to heat a home.

Re: How a heat pump works

#52
post #7

What is going on? Is there a global push to get everyone to switch to heat pumps. It seems that there is heat pump content everywhere. Clearly there is a push. I understand that its for climate benefits but it feels very coordinated. edit: didn't realize the attention I would get. Let me add someone answered my question -- a good product market fit and people talking is probably where the push came from. That said HV…

topic of discussion: is anyone else concerned that all the new things being clearly pushed hard, regardless of reasons(good or bad), has the common theme of centralizing. In a world where if your heatpump stops working, you die from cold, it would be an awfully sad thing if social credit scores dictated a very low kilowatthour limit. Much more sad than a world where you obtain firewood from some local vendor

I am not sure the case you are making here- most people who would be switching to a heat pump for heat are almost certainly using oil, natural gas, or propane to heat their homes, all of which require a good deal of centralization.

Those that have the ability to use firewood to heat their homes today can continue doing so if they need to- its not a requirement to close up your chimney permanently to use one.

FWIW I am considering switching to a heat pump, but would still have natural gas fireplaces as a backup.

Re: How a heat pump works

#53
post #26

Definitely a lot of posts about heat pumps on HN recently that this topic has piqued my interest but only to the point that I want to know if I can install one in my home. Are there any legit resources out there that can help me understand if heat pump is a right choice for my home based on Geo, type of home, sqft and other factors to consider before replacing current systems (two ACs and two furnaces?)

Generally, they can work anywhere in the continental US. (Assuming you live in the US.) If you're in northern NH, NY, VT, or Maine, you might want to keep your gas system as a backup. (New homes tend to have electric backup, but if you have an older home they just keep your furnace as backup.)

I have a 3000 sqft house in MA with a heat pump as my primary heat, and an electric strip as backup. The heat pump goes into the ductwork for most of the house. I generally haven't had problems. (It did have to be adjusted because it was the first time the installer put one in.) I have solar and usually get 1-2 large bills in January and February, and then March and April are very cheap, if I get a bill at all. My "large" January and February are comparable to what I'd spend on conventional heat.

Last weekend we had a "once in a century" cold snap down to -4. Most of the house was at temp, but one room fell to the high 50s. From what I've heard, plenty of people with conventional heat had far worse issues than a chilly room.

Re: How a heat pump works

#54

The heat pumps are one of the means of heating (and air conditioning) in the heart of the news. What is their principle of operation. You can ask questions here if there are points to clarify in the course

I'd like to get a heat pump to replace my existing baseboard hot-water system (currently powered by an oil furnace) without converting to a heated air system. From what I've read, that's not quite feasible yet, since current systems can't produce a high enough temperature. What are the prospects of that technology becoming viable in the next few years?

This guy is a great resource if you want to understand what goes into a proper A2W system install. In Europe, it seems by law they are required to do heat loss calculations to size an install. In the US, it seems to be a little more loose. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IvGe4JZLSU

Re: How a heat pump works

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is there a global push to get everyone to switch to heat pumps. I mean, yes. They're much more energy efficient than the alternatives and will play a key part of removing our dependence on fossil fuels. > I understand that its for climate benefits but it feels very coordinated. That seems like a good thing?

They are not more energy efficient than burning gas. Edit: since i am getting downvoted to oblivion, let me fight back here. I genuinely wished heat pumps would be more efficient and in theory they can be. I would love to not generate heat and just use the outside heat energy and compress it down into a smaller location. But compressing and decompressing is not an energy efficient task. It takes a lot of work. Mechan…

Well of course when talking about efficiency you have to specify what you are being efficient with respect to: what's most energy efficient might be different to what's most cost efficient which might be different to what's most carbon efficient.

Cost is going to vary greatly on the electricity and gas prices in your area, so it's hard to give a definitive answer there.

With regards to energy efficiency, my understanding is that heat pumps can be up to 400% (300% typical), which is naively much better than gas which is at most 90% efficient (70-80% typical). This doesn't take into account the extra innefficiency of generating the electricity in the first place, but a quick google tells me coal plants are typically 33% efficient, with combined cycle gas plants being typically being 50% efficient. Even at those levels, heat pumps still look to be coming out ahead to me. And that's not even taking into the possibility of green energy generation through renewables or nuclear.

Re: How a heat pump works

#56

The heat pumps are one of the means of heating (and air conditioning) in the heart of the news. What is their principle of operation. You can ask questions here if there are points to clarify in the course

I'd like to get a heat pump to replace my existing baseboard hot-water system (currently powered by an oil furnace) without converting to a heated air system. From what I've read, that's not quite feasible yet, since current systems can't produce a high enough temperature. What are the prospects of that technology becoming viable in the next few years?

So CO2 heatpumps are starting to become available in the US which can run higher temperatures. But most likely the best option would be to switch to radiators that don't require as high of temperature to operate. Something like underfloor heating or panel radiators.

The other option that is common in New England is to keep the baseboard oil heat and get mini splits. Then run the mini splits for heat and if they cannot keep up switch to the oil heat.

Re: How a heat pump works

#57
post #49

As someone who lives in the northeast and has a 3600sqft home, I'm wondering how many heat pumps it would take to replace my gas steam boiler system. I'm not sure if heat pumps would be cost efficient given those parameters.

In the Northeast with that much square footage, you would be better off with ground-source heat pumps (whether open or closed loop), rather than the normal air-source heat pumps.

Re: How a heat pump works

#58

The heat pumps are one of the means of heating (and air conditioning) in the heart of the news. What is their principle of operation. You can ask questions here if there are points to clarify in the course

I'd like to get a heat pump to replace my existing baseboard hot-water system (currently powered by an oil furnace) without converting to a heated air system. From what I've read, that's not quite feasible yet, since current systems can't produce a high enough temperature. What are the prospects of that technology becoming viable in the next few years?

What works for me in the northeast with an old house is a high velocity small duct air handler/distribution system (unico) coupled with a Bosch cold climate heat pump, with an oil furnace backup. This is forced air, so not exactly what you are looking for and I get that the heat from those baseboards is a better quality/less drying form of heat. I could upgrade to add a whole house humidifier to address this a bit. I use the heat pump most of the year, down to an outside temp of about 25F, although Bosch says I should be good down to 5F. The oil furnace runs basically Jan/Feb (but not as much this Feb as it's like 50F today). I've also extensively sealed/insulated the house (although there's always more of that to be done in an old house). It's a pretty good solution. I'd love for the air to water heat pump tech to work better, but I got tired of waiting.

Re: How a heat pump works

#59
I’ve had Mitsubishi heat pumps in a condo in the northeast for 3 years and they’ve worked great. No other heating sources here. I keep them on all day, which the mfgt discourages. My main gripe was their kumo cloud and Wi-Fi connectivity but they’ve since fixed firmware and the cloud side and it works much better.

Re: How a heat pump works

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this as well and it looks to be multiple people buying in to the campaign, especially here on HN. Having lived in a new, high end apartment that had a heat pump for both heating and cooling for 3 years, I am very unimpressed with the tech. Running nonstop, couldn't heat/cool above/below a certain threshold. Electric bill very high. Clogged and broke a lot. If the general radiant heat and cooling from being in l…

Your high end apartment must have had a low end heat pump installed. In the midwest a geothermal heat pump would work wonderfully. Also, they are designed to run constantly in order to maintain the set temperature -- it's not like a natural gas fired furnace where it quickly reaches the set point.

> Also, they are designed to run constantly in order to maintain the set temperature

Not all heat pumps are variable-speed like you describe. My own home, built in 2000, has a single-speed heat pump that kicks on 100% or off, like a regular old AC unit.

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