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Stripe increases price for business in the European Economic Area

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51–60 of 237 posts

Re: Stripe increases price for business in the European Economic Area

#51
post #15

I don't know how Stripe can justify these pricing, except for "oh we can extract more money, let's do that!". In other (non-Western) countries pricing for local payment systems can be less than half of what Stripe charges, e. g. Alipay (one of the biggest Chinese payment services) charges about 0.55% merchant fee without per-transaction cost.

Even in the EEA if you only care about payments, nothing stops you from going to a cheaper alternative. For instance https://www.stancer.com/en/pricing

And I don't know the rates big players negotiate with Adyen but it's probably similar.

Re: Stripe increases price for business in the European Economic Area

#52
post #35

I have been pondering transaction costs lately. Seems like this is an area where intervention could have massive impact: these costs are effectively a tax that incurs deadweight loss so according to prevailing economic theory if we can reduce it the whole economy should be catalysed. IIUC governments already introduce price caps for certain elements of this market but I think we could be doing more? Like mandating in…

On the other hand, transaction networks clearly add massive value, so it’s very likely that net of fees (without which the network may not exist at all) these networks still add value. So it’s more a question of finding the optimal equilibrium rather than viewing fees as “deadweight”.

“Dead weight” might be too harsh a term, but I think “rent seeking” is spot on. And it’s generally not a good idea to let rent seekers extract value in proportion to the damage they could potentially cause.

Re: Stripe increases price for business in the European Economic Area

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory, they can't. But no one is enforcing it because there is a plan to change the law.

No. Technically it's illegal to provide such service, not receive it. Fun fact, this very website is not GDPR compliant. I've never ever seen a cookie notice on HN, which is legally required. Of course, none of this is relevant, because AFAIK HN has no physical presence in the EU, but still, this site is not GDPR compliant, which just outlines how stupid GDPR actually is.

Cookie notices are required if you for example use them to pass data to third parties.

A login cookie that is just for auth is not that. It is specifically requested by the user and implies that the user's data is managed on that site and can be evicted.

Same with analytics. The problem is not that you're doing analytics. It's that the user doesn't know that your doing it and that you're passing on that data to a third party.

Re: Stripe increases price for business in the European Economic Area

#54
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Higher costs of compliance in the EU perhaps?

EU has limited the fees credit card companies can apply on transactions in Europe, doesn't that mean Stripe should have lower overhead costs there?

That is the case. Stripe will be charging the American businesses with American customers 2.9% + 30¢, and their European businesses with European customers 1.5% + 25¢.

Re: Stripe increases price for business in the European Economic Area

#55

I have been pondering transaction costs lately. Seems like this is an area where intervention could have massive impact: these costs are effectively a tax that incurs deadweight loss so according to prevailing economic theory if we can reduce it the whole economy should be catalysed. IIUC governments already introduce price caps for certain elements of this market but I think we could be doing more? Like mandating in…

My years in fintech have taught me that it'll be very difficult to get these charges down without legislation. What they are is, essentially, insurance.

For Visa/MC, "running the network" at cost is possible on much less money, but the network involves a lot of elements along the chain that can get transactions reverted. The "insurance" (1-3% of tx) pays for the legal-adjacent issues related to handling those transactions being contested.

Go to a restaurant, use a US terminal? Great, the restaurant owner can modify the transactions after it's been authorized and long after you're gone, "because tip". There's zero checks on this, it's a matter of "it works because most people don't do it". So when it happens, sometimes the payer notices and issues a dispute and the dispute management is part of the network. This is where a lot of costs go.

Anyway, the network is ridiculously bad. The fraud/aml checks are not usually shared among payment providers, because they can just milk each other instead by selling their checks. No wonder it's hard to get the transaction fees down.

And yeah, it's a duopoly. The solution by the way isn't to directly try to build a global visa/mc competitor; with the moat, that's impossible. Rather, it's to build on top of what European countries are doing. EU countries have built their local competitors (Bancontact, EPS, BLIK, iDEAL, Sofort, ...). Those have lower costs, and so would any locally-targeted provider because they each have to deal with less risk and complexity. Any aggregator (like Stripe is, by the way) can take payments for all of them and push people away from card payments. The problem with that very last part is a UX issue, people like paying by card.

It's a difficult problem. What makes it especially difficult IMO is that once you're down this path and become successful, it takes some very specific, very early business choices in order to be able to turn down the mountains of cash that show up to your doorstep in the form of "align your fees with the rest of the industry".

Re: Stripe increases price for business in the European Economic Area

#56
post #30

> Dispute fees (also known as chargebacks) will increase from €15 to €20. Due to costs for managing dispute evidence submissions (regardless of outcome), we'll no longer refund this fee if the customer's bank resolves the dispute in your favor. > If you or your users have an account located in an EEA country that has not adopted the Euro, here are the fixed fees of €20 in local currencies: Bulgaria: ЛВ40; Czech Repub…

It makes taking cards via Stripe completely untenable as anyone can dispute a legit charge and you're still out of pocket - imagine being charged 20 EUR for a 3 eur order even if the customer actually ordered it and just felt like being a dick

You just refund 3€ order and move on. This is the reason why marketplaces implement sophisticated solutions for returns — sometimes it is cheaper to let a few customers to get their product for free than to spend ton of money on returns, refunds and legal disputes. You can always reflect this risk in your prices.

Re: Stripe increases price for business in the European Economic Area

#57
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU has limited the fees credit card companies can apply on transactions in Europe, doesn't that mean Stripe should have lower overhead costs there?

That only applies to the card networks not merchants or processors, but there is also a dual rate system that the EU are obsessed with where intra EU is much cheaper, they mandated the same for voice calls too, it's very dumb and just insulates the EU further (which is their plan it seems)

Yours is a rare anti-EU comment arguing that the EU should extends its regulation beyond its borders/citizens.

Re: Stripe increases price for business in the European Economic Area

#58
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU has limited the fees credit card companies can apply on transactions in Europe, doesn't that mean Stripe should have lower overhead costs there?

That only applies to the card networks not merchants or processors, but there is also a dual rate system that the EU are obsessed with where intra EU is much cheaper, they mandated the same for voice calls too, it's very dumb and just insulates the EU further (which is their plan it seems)

It doesn't apply to the card scheme, it applies to interchange, i.e. the part that goes back to the card issuer.

I don't see how that is dumb, the EU cannot do anything about issuers outside of it, and PSPs have to reflect the huge difference in interchange fees one way or another.

Re: Stripe increases price for business in the European Economic Area

#59
post #15

I don't know how Stripe can justify these pricing, except for "oh we can extract more money, let's do that!". In other (non-Western) countries pricing for local payment systems can be less than half of what Stripe charges, e. g. Alipay (one of the biggest Chinese payment services) charges about 0.55% merchant fee without per-transaction cost.

Yeah but it's not the same economy of scale, you'll reckon. Alipay is also completely systemic in China and cant exactly be considered a private entreprise anymore: they're "more famous than Jesus" in their own way.

I barely ever heard of Stripe as a European, and now that I live in China, it's almost mandatory to have alipay.

Re: Stripe increases price for business in the European Economic Area

#60
the beginning of the end of stripe. Instead of attracting more customers and building the ground for a healthy startup ecosystem, stripe chose the shortsighted 'let's just charge more'. this immediately makes other alternatives like adyen more attractive...bad move and I don't get how patrick collison who roams around here let this happen. the 2.9%+0.25 was already allowing for healthy margins, and was higher than competitors.
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