Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Aicracy – Governed by Algorithms

aicracy.net

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 105 posts

Re: Aicracy – Governed by Algorithms

#51

Post by _bkyr »

gampleman wrote: post #10

I get this was a design/art project and not necessarily meant to be sophisticated political philosophy, nonetheless there are a few distinctions here that would be useful: To be ruled by AI I think requires the AI to be in some sense conscious, to have some notion of I and be able to form its own values and goals. Otherwise the ruler is whoever imposes/creates the AI, just in a once removed sort of way. On the other…

> Some notion of social credit, where desirable actions are being rewarded with some arbitrary tokens and undesirable actions are being punished by these tokens being taken away. In some way this is already the case with capitalism (where desirable actions are work/investment and tokens are money)

I would argue this isn't always the case. There's a lot of reward being given for things that are detrimental to society. Pharma companies being at the top of the list.

Re: Aicracy – Governed by Algorithms

#52

Post by robertlagrant »

maest wrote: post #8

> This will help you to conveniently find the products that match your taste, your wallet, and your societal value. To increase your societal value, just be yourself and actively contribute as much as you can. Your efforts will not remain unrewarded. This is supposed to be dystopian etc, but don't we already have this mechanism in place in our current world? It's called money.

I think the dystopian aspect is that it's an AI judging your value, not other people giving you some of their finite money based on your value to them.

Re: Aicracy – Governed by Algorithms

#53

Post by freemanon »

newswasboring wrote: post #46
freemanon wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neutrality is a prerequisite for discussions. This project is not a discussion.

I don't think I have ever had a discussion which started from a neutral point of view. The process of discussion was neutral in the sense that all sides were considered equally, but everyone enters the discussion with something in their mind. Which is fair, right? Everyone has looked and thought about the problem, so of course they have an opinion.

The participants of discussion may have biases, but the forum shouldn't.

This project claims to be promoting a discussion, therefore being the forum rather than a participant. If it itself takes a clear position from the start, it has already impaired the debate by turning itself into a participant vs those for the adoption of AI within government.

Unless its understanding of "dystopian" is one that's merely provocative rather than intrinsically evil or needs to be prevented.

Re: Aicracy – Governed by Algorithms

#54

Post by blitz_skull »

freemanon wrote: post #20
clericbob wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know you can disagree with a conclusion, right?

Neutrality is a prerequisite for discussions. This project is not a discussion.

lol wat.

Please cite your sources, friend. All my best discussions started with, “Bro, you’re an idiot if you think…”

Re: Aicracy – Governed by Algorithms

#55

Post by robertlagrant »

kissgyorgy wrote: post #21

This would be a perfect episode for Black Mirror. Hopefully won't become real.

It already exists: Nosedive, S3E1 [0].

See also: Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom by Cory Doctorow [1] and Community's App Developments and Condiments, S5E8 [2].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosedive_(Black_Mirror)

[1] https://craphound.com/down/download

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/App_Development_and_Condiments

Re: Aicracy – Governed by Algorithms

#56

Post by freemanon »

michaelscott wrote: post #24
freemanon wrote: post #18

I've actually discussed the same idea with friends. My western friends find the idea very repulsive, where for me with my mixed east-west background find it worthy of exploration. IMO the west's ideals reflects their history of loosely-confederated tribes, e.g. the Germanic and Frankish tribes. Centralised governments are the exception (the Roman empire, lasting only a few hundred years). Compare this with the east w…

Western cultures, as originating from the Greeks, prioritise the individual in society and usually attempt to improve through the conflict and collaboration of such individuals. Eastern cultures, as originating from Confucianism, prioritise the group and attempt to improve through harmony of social structure and contribution to the greater good. I wouldn't say one is better than the other, but they're very alien in c…

Sums up my thoughts! Haven't met many people who can appreciate or at least listen to both point of views, unfortunately.

Re: Aicracy – Governed by Algorithms

#57

Post by [deleted] »

freemanon wrote: post #48
bbor wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The goal is stated at the bottom - they take it for granted that no one wants to be ruled by chatbot. The point is to get you to think about what exactly is wrong with this picture, and what that says about the future you wish to see > It was the goal of this project to show a dystopian future, sensitizing people to undesirable futures while stimulating a discussion about what they wish the future to be like.

Thanks for clarifying, you described this project well. In my view taking for granted that the role of AI would be bad/dystopian makes it unsuitable to be called a discussion. Imagine if we switch this topic to immigration in the 1900s, then we'd have a project that take for granted that a country where the majority are immigrants would be dystopian, and the "discussion" would revolve around how to stop migrants from…

[deleted]

Re: Aicracy – Governed by Algorithms

#58

Post by freemanon »

ETH_start wrote: post #50
michaelscott wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Western cultures, as originating from the Greeks, prioritise the individual in society and usually attempt to improve through the conflict and collaboration of such individuals. Eastern cultures, as originating from Confucianism, prioritise the group and attempt to improve through harmony of social structure and contribution to the greater good. I wouldn't say one is better than the other, but they're very alien in c…

The individualized approach is more congruent with reality, as people experience the world as individuals. Collectivism is based on a conceptual error, in personifying society, instead of recognizing it as an abstract notion. The advancement of human civilization was driven by the recognition of individual rights and the emphasis on the individual. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/07/the-pol...

If you're into eastern philosophies/religions, there is an emphasis on understanding the Ego. Personally I would rather have less rights and be less rich than to see the less-fortunate continue to suffer.

A bigger house or a fancier cars doesn't persuade me more than doing something to empower the disenfranchised.

Edit: Also, civilisations arose because people were able to work together and trust each other. We stopped killing each other or relieving ourselves whenever we want so that we can all have a better quality of life.

Re: Aicracy – Governed by Algorithms

#59

Post by freemanon »

blitz_skull wrote: post #54
freemanon wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neutrality is a prerequisite for discussions. This project is not a discussion.

lol wat. Please cite your sources, friend. All my best discussions started with, “Bro, you’re an idiot if you think…”

I'm not making a factual claim, what sources can I cite, Plato?

It's up to us humans to decide whether discussions are better off taking place within a neutral/biased forum.

Re: Aicracy – Governed by Algorithms

#60

Post by slashdev »

twak wrote: post #29

My old supervisor wrote a book on computational socialism back in 93. I rather like some of the ideas (can a participatory centrally planned economy work now that we have internet/cybernetics?), but suspect it wouldn't work in practice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Towards_a_New_Socialism

I’ve often wondered about it too. Is it possible with sufficiently good AI and enough data?

I think a major shortcoming is you still need the creativity of people inventing new products and services and bringing those to market. Without capitalism, how can you incentivize the entrepreneurs?

I’m sure there must be a way, I’m less certain that there’s a better way.

With general AI it could be done, but it’s questionable what value we serve in such an environment.

Post reply on HN