Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Fentanyl vaccine tested in rats

uh.edu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 378 posts

Re: Fentanyl vaccine tested in rats

#51

Post by joecot »

hwbehrens wrote: post #5

I can imagine such a thing being a double-edged sword, in that it blocks the analgesic effects of the drug as well as the high. Doubly so if this one is a success and they make similar versions targeting other addictive painkillers. I can imagine people taking the vaccine proactively (the normal way people think about vaccines, after all) from the perspective of, "I don't want to become an addict, I better take this!…

If we limit it to people who are using non-prescription drugs, without judgement, this will be the Game Changer they describe. First Heroin, but now cocaine, and even black market cannabis, are being tainted with fentanyl. For that set of people, stopping an accidental poisoning is much more important than potential complications with pain medication later.

Re: Fentanyl vaccine tested in rats

#52

Post by euthymiclabs »

It's provocative in rats, but there's lessons from similar attempts that need to be considered. Cocaine-specific vaccines have been in development for years, and they haven't been successful. The biggest problem is that you need people to maintain an enormous concentration of antibodies against the drug so that even minute quantities are captured within seconds of entering the blood stream. Even if you can achieve an initial therapeutic levels, you need to constantly boost the vaccine to maintain high antibody titer. All of these attempts have targeted people with cocaine use disorder and are able to focus on shots every few weeks to months. We're nowhere close to developing something that would work as a routine preventative vaccination.

We do have a once a month injection of naltrexone that can block all opioids, which can be effective in the right person. A targeted approach to fentanyl alone would probably work in people who don't have an opioid use disorder (and therefore wouldn't be as prone to substitution with an alternative opioid). This is an interesting step, but our understanding of immunology is far too limited to make this realistic in the near term.

Re: Fentanyl vaccine tested in rats

#53

Post by calibas »

Oh boy, the pharmaceutical companies can sell a new product to help solve the mess that one of their previous products created.

An opioid that's more potent, more addictive, and more deadly than heroin should never have gone to market in the first place. It speaks of enormous corruption and a complete lack of ethics when regulators didn't see an issue with fentanyl and let it move forward.

The "but people are in pain" argument doesn't hold up very well when heroin is safer and has less potential for abuse but they already made illegal in the US.

Re: Fentanyl vaccine tested in rats

#54

Post by freedomben »

joecot wrote: post #51
hwbehrens wrote: post #5

I can imagine such a thing being a double-edged sword, in that it blocks the analgesic effects of the drug as well as the high. Doubly so if this one is a success and they make similar versions targeting other addictive painkillers. I can imagine people taking the vaccine proactively (the normal way people think about vaccines, after all) from the perspective of, "I don't want to become an addict, I better take this!…

If we limit it to people who are using non-prescription drugs, without judgement, this will be the Game Changer they describe. First Heroin, but now cocaine, and even black market cannabis, are being tainted with fentanyl. For that set of people, stopping an accidental poisoning is much more important than potential complications with pain medication later.

This seems utterly insane to me as a solution compared to just making it possible (without facing extreme criminal penalties) to buy what you think you are buying. I haven't checked but I would guess that the number of fentanyl deaths for people who buy cannabis from legal businesses don't typically get product that is contaminated.

Re: Fentanyl vaccine tested in rats

#55

Post by klyrs »

DiabloD3 wrote: post #6
mdanger007 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A vaccine doesn't work unless it helps the tiny fraction of fentenyl deaths who unintentnially take the drug? How about this: You're less likely to come in contact with the drug if there are fewer users getting high off it.

Let's go another way with this: You are extremely unlikely to ever come across a fentanyl user, even if you work for law enforcement, even if you're a LEO in a major metro. 10x people died of heart attacks than any opioid, not only fentenyl, over the past few years. Almost as many people died of cancer as heart attacks, and half as many people died of COVID as cancer. Obviously, you can't equate research with other r…

> You are extremely unlikely to ever come across a fentanyl user,

... unless you walk around downtown in many major cities, where you will come across dozens in the space of a city block. People who work in downtown Vancouver often carry naloxone kits, not because they're ever going to use, but because they don't want to watch somebody die on the street. You don't even need to know how to use the naloxone -- if somebody is in distress and you say "hey I've got a naloxone kit" you're already a hero because everybody else knows how to use it.

Re: Fentanyl vaccine tested in rats

#57

Post by freedomben »

actionfromafar wrote: post #30
version_five wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Something like this happened in neuromancer. Right, and Case bought betaphenethylamine instead of speed which was way harsher. That's exactly what is going to happen, some more potent drug that escapes the vaccine is going to get more popular. It's a bandaid solution that ignores the root cause (drug prohibition)

Wait, what? Selling fentanyl as candy in every street corner shop is going to fix this?

I really don't undertand this binary thinking regarding drugs. It seems like there's at least a third option in there somewhere between "ban it all and everything related and lock people up for decades if they touch the stuff" and "put it in a Pez dispenser and give every elementary school student a 12 tab slider with lunch every day."

We don't do that with alcohol or weed, I don't see why that's the first (and often only) option that comes to people's minds when suggesting some form of legalization.

Re: Fentanyl vaccine tested in rats

#58

Post by freedomben »

KMag wrote: post #20
ARandomerDude wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how do you propose we get all the users vaccinated with the fentanyl jab? Another round of mass vaccinations? Make all the kids in school do it? Forced vaccinations for anyone in jail or rehab? Honestly, all of those seem like bad ideas.

If the government subscribed wholly to utilitarian ethics, it's arguable that it would be an ethical imperative to contaminate the fentanyl supply with vaccine. I don't agree, and think it's immoral and unethical to subject citizens to such medical treatment without informed consent. However, under some ethical systems, the improvement in aggregate health makes in an ethical necessity.

The US government has actually done similar things before, such as poisoning bootlegged alcohol with methanol. It's good that you bring it up because at some point somebody in power will.

Re: Fentanyl vaccine tested in rats

#59

Post by pessimizer »

elil17 wrote: post #29
orblivion wrote: post #19

Flash reactions: * You could identify fentanyl passed off as heroin, cocaine, etc because they don't work as well. * "Damn this cocaine is weak. Maybe I need to take more" - I could imagine this leading to more fentanyl overdoses. * Something like this happened in neuromancer.

Opioid overdoses are typically due how opioids effect the brain, so this would prevent fentanyl from contributing to and overdose.

Opioid overdoses are typically due to overestimation of one's tolerance or underestimation of the strength of the drug being taken, and what you are responding to is a way that a weakened fentanyl effect could lead to that.

Re: Fentanyl vaccine tested in rats

#60

Post by [deleted] »

factsarelolz wrote: post #46
Ekaros wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't we already do it? Ban people from working if they don't take it, maybe take away any benefits too. Don't allow them to public places?

> Ban people from working if they don't take it, maybe take away any benefits too. Don't allow them to public places? Over a one's own choice to not have a medical procedure? Should we do the same to those whom have abortions? Who gets to make a choice on what medical procedures a population should have? Why is it not the individuals decision?

[deleted]
Post reply on HN