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The hardest part of being a junior developer

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Re: The hardest part of being a junior developer

#51

Post by blacksqr »

Justsignedup wrote: post #17

I solved this problem, quite well, and still do this all the damn time: 1) try to solve the problem 2) Gee, it's hard. shit. okay think think think 3) okay ask for help. wait... let's write a slack message. First write the problem, explain exactly what you tried, and ideas for next attempts. Explain your confusions. 4) OMG I SOLVED IT or 4a) Hit send. I find that 70% of the time, I don't hit send. 30% of the time it…

When I was young in the pre-Slack era when you actually had to find a colleague physically to explain the problem to, this was called "cardboard engineer syndrome"; i.e., talking to a cardboard cutout of a colleague would have been just as effective.

Re: The hardest part of being a junior developer

#52

Post by spike021 »

I'm a mid (technically "senior" title at current job) level engineer with about 7 YOE. I still get stuck sometimes.

The major difference from what I remember 5+ years ago is I try to ask early and often (like the vote early, vote often adage) when I need help.

Something that I think is missed in this industry, though, is that everyone has different backgrounds.

I started this job late last year and sometimes I'll have a lot of questions or get blocked on something I have zero experience in. It can be frustrating because I don't want to over-ask, and know how to timebox myself, but team members, or relevant engineers on other teams, may have less years of experience with more contextual knowledge/experience and occasionally don't want to be bothered to share it. We can get into the nitty-gritty of team culture and all that, but I think it really in this case just boils down to recognizing that someone may not know everything and they could be higher or lower level; it's just important to find the right method to get them up to speed.

Re: The hardest part of being a junior developer

#53

Post by spike021 »

LAC-Tech wrote: post #36

I wish developers talked and asked each other for help more. Not just juniors but seniors too. This idea that we're all supposed to solve problems in a shared code base completely independently and we're wasting time helping/asking for help is poisonous. Things get solved lot faster when someone comes in with a different perspective. And it keeps communication going. Of course maybe everyone else is a lone genius and…

I mentioned this elsewhere in this thread, but something I've seen first-hand is that people sometimes with less time in the industry will assume someone else more senior "knows everything and shouldn't need help". So you get this imbalance of knowledge and it becomes "why don't you know this already?" instead of "what can we do processes/documentation/team knowledge-wise?" to bridge the gap.

I think once you spend enough time in the industry, you learn that even younger/more "inexperienced" people could have better skills or knowledge of certain things (certain types of message queues, certain parts of a network stack, React, etc etc) than someone with more time. It's important to figure out how to balance that. But many people kind of gloss over it or frame it as "well why _don't_ you know this??"

Re: The hardest part of being a junior developer

#54

Post by Waterluvian »

nopmike wrote: post #44
Waterluvian wrote: post #10

I had a mentor at my last job who clearly really didn't want to be one. It was to the point that I would sit paralyzed behind him, loathing turning around to get his help. In all fairness, I had yet to learn a good way to get help without interrupting his hard work. I'm not sure he ever fully knew he was my mentor, but without his help I was completely blocked on making any progress on the deep-end project I was thro…

> "X is your mentor. X's main job is to mentor you and help you swim in this deep end." I don't think that will ever happen, nor should it. No ones main job should be to mentor someone else. The best teams all help each other. Early and often.

I think your opinion is strongly founded on a bunch of personal assumptions given how little information was provided. Be careful not to miss the point by fixating on details.

I’ve seen a lot of bad engineers and most of them undervalue helping others. Good engineering leads know that they can write more code by supporting everyone than by writing code themselves. Definitely a form of mentorship. I’ve seen some that are almost 100% mentors.

Re: The hardest part of being a junior developer

#55

Post by zxcvbn4038 »

I have not been a junior developer for a long time, but I occasionally get treated like one. One day after joining a new employer I raised my first or second pull request - and one of the longer term members of the team reviewed it and really let me have it! In every single line he found problems with my style, approach, everything - and he wasn’t really polite about any of it either. So I wrote back that it was actually his change from the previous day with all “dev” changed to “qa”. No response but the change was approved.

Re: The hardest part of being a junior developer

#56

Post by mnhn1 »

actually_a_dog wrote: post #33
TexanFeller wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen HR get involved in situations like this zero time in my career. I wouldn't want them to either.

That depends IMO. Is the "mentor" really the "manager?" If someone with power over your performance evaluations and future at the company is swearing under their breath every time you do something wrong, that's a problem that HR maybe should be involved in.

HR is not there to solve your problems. HR is there to protect the company.

It's fine to be friendly with HR (some wonderful people work there), but remember who is paying them and whose interests they are supposed to look out for first. Definitely not yours.

HR wants all the info they can get from you. They will cheerfully listen to everything you tell them. And then they will do their job, which is to analyze the situation for potential risks around legal exposure, and take steps to mitigate those risks.

I would basically never bring HR in to a problem unless you are very confident that solving your problem and the goal of protecting the company are truly in alignment. Maybe retraining the manager is better for the company, but who knows. They can also solve their problem by removing the new employee who is being treated badly.

Re: The hardest part of being a junior developer

#57

Post by Cyberdogs7 »

I manage a team of fully remote junior developers, with some seniors mixed in. In my onboarding speech, and throughout their first 90 days, I am constantly emphasizing them to 'Be bold, ask the stupid question' as it highlights gaps in our documentation, onboarding process, or general knowledge graph.

Also, I am very up front with all of them that I am here to keep them challenged, but they have a ripcord they can pull at anytime if things get too stressful or if things get too easy.

I am very conscious to say 'If things get too stressful' and NOT 'if things get too hard'. A stressed out engineer is no good to anyone.

Re: The hardest part of being a junior developer

#58

Post by ThunderSizzle »

blacksqr wrote: post #51
Justsignedup wrote: post #17

I solved this problem, quite well, and still do this all the damn time: 1) try to solve the problem 2) Gee, it's hard. shit. okay think think think 3) okay ask for help. wait... let's write a slack message. First write the problem, explain exactly what you tried, and ideas for next attempts. Explain your confusions. 4) OMG I SOLVED IT or 4a) Hit send. I find that 70% of the time, I don't hit send. 30% of the time it…

When I was young in the pre-Slack era when you actually had to find a colleague physically to explain the problem to, this was called "cardboard engineer syndrome"; i.e., talking to a cardboard cutout of a colleague would have been just as effective.

I know this as rubber ducking. Explain your problem to a "rubber duck" on your desk. It doesn't have to be a real rubber duck.

Re: The hardest part of being a junior developer

#59

Post by warvariuc »

Scubabear68 wrote: post #14

This is not limited to juniors. I know some fairly senior devs who are afraid to say “I don’t know” or admit they are stuck. Particularly when they are working on someone else’s legacy code that may be of dubious quality. It is a shame, because in many cases just a little humility and admission they are human would make them much stronger developers. As it is, it leads to a level of distrust and uncertainty within th…

I often recommend this video to Juniors in IT: [The Myth of the Genius Programmer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SARbwvhupQ)

Re: The hardest part of being a junior developer

#60

Post by tidenly »

zxcvbn4038 wrote: post #55

I have not been a junior developer for a long time, but I occasionally get treated like one. One day after joining a new employer I raised my first or second pull request - and one of the longer term members of the team reviewed it and really let me have it! In every single line he found problems with my style, approach, everything - and he wasn’t really polite about any of it either. So I wrote back that it was actu…

I still work on a team the person who mentored me four years ago. He's a great guy, but sometimes in front of other engineers he'll still treat me like I'm a junior - and start explaining some incredibly simple concept to me like an idiot. Sometimes things I obviously knew before even joining, like how HTTP verbs work.

It's just a quirk of his without malice I think, but it does get to me depending on who its in front of. I think he just wanted to be seen as the teacher.

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