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Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

politico.eu

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Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#51

Post by csomar »

user_named wrote: post #31
alzamos wrote: post #16

Currently living in the Algarve after moving to Lisbon with my partner for her studies years ago. I know a few non-crypto entrepreneurs who came here for the NHR (non habitual resident scheme - the scheme mentioned in the article which allowed for the 20% tax cap on foreign income). I can confirm that a lot of them were incredibly frustrated with the bureaucracy they encountered, not just when dealing with the govern…

Expats complain about bureaucracy everywhere. A German expat in Sweden will complain about Swedish bureaucracy. A Swedish expat in Germany will complain about German bureaucracy. It does not mean anything. Expats complain about everything.

There is bureaucracy and then there is bureaucracy.

Here is an example: Malaysia and Indonesia. Each country has its own bureaucratic nightmares but you can make useful comparisons.

Malaysia: Easy to get a phone number. Easy to get an internet hotspot to get data. Reliable internet. Internet is fully open (no censorship).

Indonesia: Hard to get a phone number. Confusing choices and prices with Whatsapp/FB mingled in the choices. Have to submit your passport photo to some dodgy dude, who has to get a certain authorization. Took half a day for the Internet to activate. Data is not very reliable. Heavy censorship (not even Reddit works!) so have to get a VPN to do any meaningful browsing.

So sure as an expat you'll face bureaucracy but some countries' issue is beyond bureaucracy, it's that the process is fundamentally broken and no one gives a shit. This makes you lose significant time for relatively simple things (at least in other countries).

Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#52

Post by stanislavb »

user_named wrote: post #31
alzamos wrote: post #16

Currently living in the Algarve after moving to Lisbon with my partner for her studies years ago. I know a few non-crypto entrepreneurs who came here for the NHR (non habitual resident scheme - the scheme mentioned in the article which allowed for the 20% tax cap on foreign income). I can confirm that a lot of them were incredibly frustrated with the bureaucracy they encountered, not just when dealing with the govern…

Expats complain about bureaucracy everywhere. A German expat in Sweden will complain about Swedish bureaucracy. A Swedish expat in Germany will complain about German bureaucracy. It does not mean anything. Expats complain about everything.

Well, that's not exactly always true. I've had zero problems with bureaucracy since moving to Australia. My case has been that everything just works - minimal human involvement, and when it's present - it's pretty optimized.

I think that due to the high cost of labour (highest minimal pay in the world) and lack of labour due to higher speed of development - whatever that can be automated has been automated.

Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#53

Post by csomar »

maeil wrote: post #42

Is this purely a Lisbon thing, or has it exploded over the last 6 months? I visited Porto last spring and there weren't any crowds nor many foreigners, it was pretty quiet.

It's being blown out of proportion for click-bait reasons. The journalist and the people he interviewed are delusional too (ability of Portugal to tax). There is churn even with the tax rebates because of how bad portgual is. This thing would not work with taxes or expensive prices/real-estate.

Nomadism is ephemeral. The bubble will pop as soon as the new hottest place comes into the picture.

Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#54

Post by ggambetta »

user_named wrote: post #31
alzamos wrote: post #16

Currently living in the Algarve after moving to Lisbon with my partner for her studies years ago. I know a few non-crypto entrepreneurs who came here for the NHR (non habitual resident scheme - the scheme mentioned in the article which allowed for the 20% tax cap on foreign income). I can confirm that a lot of them were incredibly frustrated with the bureaucracy they encountered, not just when dealing with the govern…

Expats complain about bureaucracy everywhere. A German expat in Sweden will complain about Swedish bureaucracy. A Swedish expat in Germany will complain about German bureaucracy. It does not mean anything. Expats complain about everything.

No. I'm an expat in Switzerland and dealing with the government and other institutions has been great - can't even call it a bureaucracy.

For reference, I found the UK pretty sensible, Spain frustrating, and my native south american country a nightmare.

Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#55

Post by whimsicalism »

rancar2 wrote: post #30
lildata wrote: post #24

Young Portuguese have been emigrating for the last 50 years. The country is full of second residences, bought by people who took advantage of cheap real estate until recently. Blaming today's inflation and cost of living on a few digital nomads or crypto people doesn't make much sense. What also chocked me when visiting Lisbon or Porto is the number of old abandoned buildings in what I would consider nice areas. I ha…

Re abandoned buildings: it’s likely due to the inheritance laws for Portugal, which are unique in the way things are automatically split upon deaths and require official signoff from all parties that are inheritors for sale. If another death occurs, then their own more inheritors for that individual.

My family is currently trying to get title to a property that should be inherited and the amount of buyouts and legal squabbles it requires just so we can repair this decrepit old building is astounding.

My guess is most families that emigrated to the US and have some inheritance right to property back in Portugal do not care to go through this legwork.

Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#56

Post by pixard »

fy20 wrote: post #43
user_named wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Expats complain about bureaucracy everywhere. A German expat in Sweden will complain about Swedish bureaucracy. A Swedish expat in Germany will complain about German bureaucracy. It does not mean anything. Expats complain about everything.

I'm not sure about Portugal, but a few years ago my wife was studying in Spain on a study abroad program. She is from another EU country, and we'd visited Spain a few times, so figured it would be easy. Pretty much every step of the way we encountered so much more bureaucracy (I am an immigrant to her country) than we could even imagine. She spoke Spanish, but if she didn't it would have been a million times harder.…

Where do you live now (if you're comfortable sharing)?

Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#57

Post by whimsicalism »

lildata wrote: post #24

Young Portuguese have been emigrating for the last 50 years. The country is full of second residences, bought by people who took advantage of cheap real estate until recently. Blaming today's inflation and cost of living on a few digital nomads or crypto people doesn't make much sense. What also chocked me when visiting Lisbon or Porto is the number of old abandoned buildings in what I would consider nice areas. I ha…

> What also chocked me when visiting Lisbon or Porto is the number of old abandoned buildings in what I would consider nice areas. I have always wondered what was the reason for that...

Likely property that is inherited to families that emigrated.

Re: Portugal’s digital nomad bubble

#60

Post by vineyardmike »

8ytecoder wrote: post #44
user_named wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Expats complain about bureaucracy everywhere. A German expat in Sweden will complain about Swedish bureaucracy. A Swedish expat in Germany will complain about German bureaucracy. It does not mean anything. Expats complain about everything.

Slightly off topic but I see this often enough and I’m curious to know, when do you call someone moving to another to work an expat instead of an immigrant.

You immigrate (verb) into a country. That makes you an immigrant (noun) of your new country.

You emigrate (verb) out of a country. That makes you an emigrant (noun) of your old country.

You expatriate (verb) to a country, from your homeland. You are an expatriate (noun) (aka expat) if you live in a country other than your native one.

For example, an American-born man who moved to Germany for part of their career and is living in Vietnam for retirement would be an American expat, who immigrated to Vietnam and emigrated from Germany.

You are often all 3 of them at once, depending on perspective. Colloquially, expats usually emigrate out of their homeland for specific reasons, usually either climate, culture, taxes. Eg. someone would expatriate to Portugal to take advantage of the tax scheme (this article), or maybe expatriate to Mexico for 'better' weather, or maybe expatriates to Paris for the cultural experience.

It is often assumed or implied that an expat has no intention of "integrating" in the culture of their host nation. Eg. an American in Mexico that moved for the weather wouldn't raise children there or apply for citizenship, but simply enjoy retiring on the beach and taking advantage of the cheaper CoL. They may still primarily speak English and seek out fellow Americans-in-mexico to socialize with instead of the locals. Conversely, a full Mexican family (parents+kids) that moved to America "for a better life" may not be considered an expat, since they intend to become citizens of America and raise their family as Americans. That is why expats sometimes have a poor reputation in their host nation, compared to other "immigrants".

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