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FBI Looking for Hashflare Victims

fbi.gov

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Re: FBI Looking for Hashflare Victims

#51

Post by saghm »

Scoundreller wrote: post #46
itsoktocry wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It would seem to set up a situation where your incentive, if you suspect a Ponzi scheme, is to quietly withdraw your money early then keep your mouth shut. How so? Law enforcement can claw it back, and the earlier you withdraw, the less your gains.

The limits depends on the jurisdiction. And harder to claw back funds after you’re already dead and the estate has been settled. Or you’ve already spent it all.

I feel like I'm missing something here. Are you saying the optimal strategy is to withdraw early, keep your mouth shut, and then...die? Are these schemes usually long-lasting enough that a non-trivial number of people who invest early would be expected to die by the time they're discovered?

Re: FBI Looking for Hashflare Victims

#52

Post by drunkonvinyl »

saghm wrote: post #51
Scoundreller wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The limits depends on the jurisdiction. And harder to claw back funds after you’re already dead and the estate has been settled. Or you’ve already spent it all.

I feel like I'm missing something here. Are you saying the optimal strategy is to withdraw early, keep your mouth shut, and then...die? Are these schemes usually long-lasting enough that a non-trivial number of people who invest early would be expected to die by the time they're discovered?

As long as you don’t claw back after you die.

Re: FBI Looking for Hashflare Victims

#53

Post by chrisjc »

yellow_lead wrote: post #42
londons_explore wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would imagine the FBI to be able to trace the holders of all the big withdrawals through the blockchain.

How? The blockchain doesn't store names or SSNs for every address. If the victim/user uses a mixer they can get their coins out easily and anonymously.

I've been watching some of Coffeezilla's videos lately and he often gets into the analysis of "following the money" from one crypto wallet to another to show how lots of his subjects conducted their scams.

Were these individuals just sloppy (probably) or is there some kind of forensic analysis that can be performed blockchains to trace the path of tokens/funds/credits through a mixer?

Although I know nothing about crypto, blockchain, defi, I imagine credits/tokens/funds can be split and merged in every imaginable way by a "mixer" and transactions can probably occur across different blockchains via exchanges as well as occur outside in the real world, but I'm curious about any sort of signal that might be extracted from such analysis, other than signals arising from just pure sloppiness.

BTW, I'm not disputing your asserting about being able to track people... more about breadcrumbs in general, even if they're anonymous.

Re: FBI Looking for Hashflare Victims

#54

Post by badocr »

Scoundreller wrote: post #49
dboreham wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all the Madoff withdrawals were innocent.

A lot of his clients were “feeder funds”, and the trustee settled with a lot of them that they should have known better. That’s where a lot of the clawbacks/recalls were from.

Jeffry Picower estate settled for a US$7.2 billion sum circa 2010 according to Wikipedia. This Picower character seems to have had a shady fortune history, he also was found dead at his swimming pool around 2009.

Re: FBI Looking for Hashflare Victims

#56

Post by pjc50 »

yellow_lead wrote: post #42
londons_explore wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would imagine the FBI to be able to trace the holders of all the big withdrawals through the blockchain.

How? The blockchain doesn't store names or SSNs for every address. If the victim/user uses a mixer they can get their coins out easily and anonymously.

Note that everybody who uses a mixer is potentially participating in money laundering, sanctions evasion, etc.

The whole premise is that you put money in and are given some different money out. But where does your money that you originally put in go? If it went to North Korea, congratulations on your crime.

Re: FBI Looking for Hashflare Victims

#57

Post by pjc50 »

themitigating wrote: post #43
avsteele wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fascinating. It would seem to set up a situation where your incentive, if you suspect a Ponzi scheme, is to quietly withdraw your money early then keep your mouth shut. Unfortunate if true.

Or move to another country without extradition, something I'm surprised more people don't do.

There are a lot fewer of those than you expect. And of course if you need to do that, you can never come back to see your family even for a visit.

Re: FBI Looking for Hashflare Victims

#58

Post by pjc50 »

jerf wrote: post #31
avsteele wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fascinating. It would seem to set up a situation where your incentive, if you suspect a Ponzi scheme, is to quietly withdraw your money early then keep your mouth shut. Unfortunate if true.

This is an important aspect of the financial world to understand, because a lot of things work this way. It doesn't have to be a "Ponzi scheme", this happens anywhere where a lot of people pool money together, nominally have an agreement that they can withdraw whenever they like, and that money is used for something illiquid, regardless of the reason for the illiquitity, resulting in a situation where if too many peo…

Hmm. Duration mismatching is kind of fundamental to the loan business. There used to be a lot more savings accounts that didn't offer at-sight withdrawal, partly because of this; if you make people wait 30 or 90 days you can have more time for things to settle.

On the other hand, in order to do that, you have to pay them a higher interest rate to make it worthwhile. And rates have been driven to the floor.

Re: FBI Looking for Hashflare Victims

#59

Post by pjc50 »

simple-thoughts wrote: post #27
neilv wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I default to pro-privacy, on principle, but are you talking about a more specific threat? A threat that outweighs the benefits of: possibly increasing the likelihood/degree of takedown of an alleged scammer, and also possibly being more likely to be compensated for losses?

The FBI maintains databases of individuals that they consider potential terrorism with such weak definitions that anyone who uses a blockchain application would qualify[1]. When you are put on the list, they will never confirm or deny whether you are on the list. However you will find yourself losing rights to internationally travel freely without harassment, may have computing devices compromised by agents, may have…

If you're not a US national, you've no reason to appeal to the FBI anyway; speak to your local authorities.
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