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Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

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Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#51

Post by mfer »

i_am_proteus wrote: post #31
PaulHoule wrote: post #7

There is no surprise that synthetic fuels work. They worked for the nazis in the 1940s and they still produce them in South Africa, Qatar and other places. In fact in a lot of ways they are better than today’s gasolines because they have a low aromatic and olefin content. The question revolve around affordability and sustainability. Most of the interest was driven by fears we would be running out of oil, now it is dr…

Yes, and: the question revolves around total financial and material capital needed to transition away from fossil fuels. Synthetic fuels are potentially valuable because they allow existing capital assets (internal combustion engines and the industry that produces them, fuel distribution infrastructure) to continue to be used. I am glad to see research into them continue- it's difficult to predict what will scale wel…

The cost to transition away from fossil fuels isn’t really talked about much.

For example, our electric grid can’t handle everyone using electric cars. Everything from electricity production to distribution needs to be upgraded. There is a massive cost to that.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#52

Post by pfdietz »

kremi wrote: post #32
marcus0x62 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The usual theory here is that fuels made from plants are carbon neutral in that while the fuel produces CO2 when burned, the plant it was made from consumed an equivalent amount of CO2 while alive. (Which, even if true ignores particulate and NOX emissions. See also: green washing.)

Some more drawbacks : 1. the plants are usually grown using fertilizers that are made out of, ironically, fossil fuels. 2. the process of turning the plant into fuel might also create emissions that need to be taken into account.

Fertilizers can also be made without fossil fuels.

One really has to distinguish between CO2 that would be emitted by the process in the current fossil fuel economy, vs. CO2 emitted when the world is off fossil fuels. In the latter, where do the carbon atoms come from if not from the biomass, and hence from the air?

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#53

Post by CrazyStat »

driverdan wrote: post #12

It sounds like they ran it on straight ethanol. This isn't new or news. Many production cars can run on straight E in good weather. The mileage claim doesn't make sense though because ethanol is less energy dense than gasoline. It'd be nice if this blogspam linked to the source so we could verify details.

Coryton (the fuel supplier) has a PR post [1] about it with a few more details. Their Sustain fuel is "blended bioethanol and biogasoline" [2]. Sustain 100% might mean either it's 100% bioethanol or 100% biogasoline, I haven't been able to find anything saying what the percentage means.

[1] https://coryton.com/lab/news/mazda-using-sustain-100-per-cen...

[2] https://coryton.com/sustain/

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#54

Post by enkid »

mrtksn wrote: post #35
PaulHoule wrote: post #7

There is no surprise that synthetic fuels work. They worked for the nazis in the 1940s and they still produce them in South Africa, Qatar and other places. In fact in a lot of ways they are better than today’s gasolines because they have a low aromatic and olefin content. The question revolve around affordability and sustainability. Most of the interest was driven by fears we would be running out of oil, now it is dr…

Well, it's kind of obvious that the supplies of oil aren't infinite, isn't it? Is there even a theory that the oil is infinite? The peak oil is about timing and and cost, maybe it didn't happen according to the predictions but it will definitely happen. Besides the environmental concerns it also seems wasteful to burn away the stuff that is used for so many more things. The synthetic stuff is interesting because it m…

The proven oil reserves have steadily increased for the last decade, even as consumption has increased. This means that we are discovering oil faster than we are burning it. The Earth obviously can't have infinite oil, but we don't know how long until we run out, and it's likely well over fifty years from now.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#55

Post by mauli »

fsh wrote: post #39

I don't think that this is a very good application for the technology. Compared to lithium batteries, synthetic fuels have much higher energy density, but much lower energy efficiency. Modern EVs achieve plenty of range, charge quickly, and the somewhat larger weight doesn't really matter in a vehicle, unless you want to race it. However, I am quite excited about using them for CO2-neutral long-distance flights. Bein…

Same here, am excited for what happens in the coming year. I did read on HN some time ago and just checked, SWISS airline working together with Synhelion https://www.swiss.com/magazine/en/inside-swiss/sustainabilit...

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#56

Post by ksec »

teekert wrote: post #27
theshrike79 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Current synthetic fuels cost around 10€/litre, which comes to around $37/gallon. Not really viable for day to day use yet.

I live in the Netherlands and we're almost there! ;) No not really but, when it peaked I saw 2.40 eur/litre (9.71$/gallon, now down to 1.80 eur/litre) in places... Of course, much of that is taxes, but hey, this stuff would receive a lot of subsidies. Fwiw, I once (4 years ago or so?) spoke to someone from an ICE conference (a parallel conference to my breast cancer conference) who explained that ICE's can be made 10…

Imagine if the fuel could be sold as carbon negative. i.e They will (somehow) plant more trees or take the same amount of CO2 from air for every CO2 fuel you burn on top of the CO2 they collect back to make the synthetic fuel.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#57

Post by ajross »

mfer wrote: post #51
i_am_proteus wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and: the question revolves around total financial and material capital needed to transition away from fossil fuels. Synthetic fuels are potentially valuable because they allow existing capital assets (internal combustion engines and the industry that produces them, fuel distribution infrastructure) to continue to be used. I am glad to see research into them continue- it's difficult to predict what will scale wel…

The cost to transition away from fossil fuels isn’t really talked about much. For example, our electric grid can’t handle everyone using electric cars. Everything from electricity production to distribution needs to be upgraded. There is a massive cost to that.

> For example, our electric grid can’t handle everyone using electric cars. Everything from electricity production to distribution needs to be upgraded. There is a massive cost to that.

Cite for that? That's simply not true. In fact of all major infrastructure media in modern society, electrical transmission is by far the cheapest to upgrade. Even discounting industrial electricity and adding on DC charging of the EV, my household usage has gone up 35%.

You really don't think society can absorb a 35% growth in one infrastructure sector? That's just silly. Obviously there are "costs", but there's no justification for "can't handle" or "massive". At all.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#58

Post by danrl »

criley2 wrote: post #36
PaulHoule wrote: post #7

There is no surprise that synthetic fuels work. They worked for the nazis in the 1940s and they still produce them in South Africa, Qatar and other places. In fact in a lot of ways they are better than today’s gasolines because they have a low aromatic and olefin content. The question revolve around affordability and sustainability. Most of the interest was driven by fears we would be running out of oil, now it is dr…

I think it's more about finding an offramp for motorsports and classic cars (and some rural machinery) that are against electrification for a variety of reasons (both legitimate and illegitimate). I don't think there is anyone at all that thinks turning agricultural waste into carbon neutral synthetic fuel for ICE has anything to do with "oil not running out" (which it absolutely is, demand is at all time highs, whil…

Just to add to this: You seem to be referring to the global picture. If we look at the US in isolation it is a different story. 30 yr low was ~4M barrels of crude oil from fields. We were at ~12M Barrels in 2022.

It is true that no major field has been opened recently which I blame on the (legitimate) push against fossil fuels and the rising cost of capital for projects that won’t pay off until at least year 5-8 of an investment. Furthermore, the shale revolution made smaller fields competitive and distributed production. Major oil fields opening are not a good indicator anymore for the industry’s state of business. For example, the Bakken formation was already open but only saw its peak extraction relatively recently.

Speaking about the US: Crude oil will be around for a long time together with LNG. Whether that is good or not is an interesting question. Either way, the conversation IMHO starts to become very different for the US compared to other significant economies, and global metrics are becoming less useful.

(Just one example: German chemical plants are moving to the US where LNG is cheap and abundant. They are rebuilding entire, enormous industrial processing plants. The US attracts fossil fuel based industries without even opening new major oil fields. Just by what is already there. )

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#59

Post by kryptiskt »

mrtksn wrote: post #35
PaulHoule wrote: post #7

There is no surprise that synthetic fuels work. They worked for the nazis in the 1940s and they still produce them in South Africa, Qatar and other places. In fact in a lot of ways they are better than today’s gasolines because they have a low aromatic and olefin content. The question revolve around affordability and sustainability. Most of the interest was driven by fears we would be running out of oil, now it is dr…

Well, it's kind of obvious that the supplies of oil aren't infinite, isn't it? Is there even a theory that the oil is infinite? The peak oil is about timing and and cost, maybe it didn't happen according to the predictions but it will definitely happen. Besides the environmental concerns it also seems wasteful to burn away the stuff that is used for so many more things. The synthetic stuff is interesting because it m…

There is such a theory, Thomas Gold thought that hydrocarbons came from underneath and then was processed by the metabolism of bacteria living far beneath the surface. He later wrote a book about the theory called "The Deep Hot Biosphere". He turned out to have been right about deep life at least.

Here is a retrospective: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5502609/

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#60

Post by mensetmanusman »

Efficiency is a double edged sword. Hydrocarbons will always have a higher energy density than batteries due to physics, which is great when moving heavy things.

Trucks are probably a good use case for synthetic zero or negative emission fuels.

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