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I became a software engineer after 5 years in data science

zachary-thomas.medium.com

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Re: I became a software engineer after 5 years in data science

#51

Post by legerdemain »

carabiner wrote: post #50

I was hoping for more advice for those pursuing this transition, but it was more just an account of Google's incredible support for his wish to change careers. He never mentions his employer by name, but I think it'd be helpful to point this out. Those of us on the outside (I and a few other DS's I know are doing this) are spending 6 months or more grinding leetcode and studying system design, doing mock interviews,…

ME (at not-Google): I wanna do a 12-week dev bootcamp!

MY LEAD: Uhhhh... What if it was two weeks long, tops? Or even less?

MY ASSIGNED HR PERSON: Great, let's process your leave of absence! We'll cut your benefits and convert your stock options so you'll have to buy them out a lot sooner than you were prepared to!

Re: I became a software engineer after 5 years in data science

#52

Post by thomzi12 »

carabiner wrote: post #50

I was hoping for more advice for those pursuing this transition, but it was more just an account of Google's incredible support for his wish to change careers. He never mentions his employer by name, but I think it'd be helpful to point this out. Those of us on the outside (I and a few other DS's I know are doing this) are spending 6 months or more grinding leetcode and studying system design, doing mock interviews,…

You're right, Google has been very supportive -- very thankful for that! That said, if you work at a technology company, you CAN build a portfolio and self-advocate for projects with engineering teams your data science team already works with.

I think it's worth seeing how far you can get with this approach before interviewing for engineering roles at other companies.

One notable caveat with my approach: pursuing a portfolio approach took me a whole year to switch from DS to engineering. As you point out, grinding leetcode may only require half that time.

Re: I became a software engineer after 5 years in data science

#53

Post by thomzi12 »

legerdemain wrote: post #51
carabiner wrote: post #50

I was hoping for more advice for those pursuing this transition, but it was more just an account of Google's incredible support for his wish to change careers. He never mentions his employer by name, but I think it'd be helpful to point this out. Those of us on the outside (I and a few other DS's I know are doing this) are spending 6 months or more grinding leetcode and studying system design, doing mock interviews,…

ME (at not-Google): I wanna do a 12-week dev bootcamp! MY LEAD: Uhhhh... What if it was two weeks long, tops? Or even less? MY ASSIGNED HR PERSON: Great, let's process your leave of absence! We'll cut your benefits and convert your stock options so you'll have to buy them out a lot sooner than you were prepared to!

Taking that much time off of any job is pretty hard to do!

The real goal of a bootcamp though (besides networking) is adding a project to your portfolio. You can then show off this project to hiring managers to demonstrate your competence.

You don't need to do a full-time bootcamp to make this happen! I just checked and Flatiron school and Hack Reactor both have online part-time full-stack bootcamps. Also, while not as big of an investment, online platforms like Codecademy have career paths with a capstone project you can complete and add to your portfolio.

So, overall there are a variety of pathways to do this. Totally fair to point out though a bootcamp of some kind is a nice option in the off-chance it's a possibility.

Re: I became a software engineer after 5 years in data science

#54

Post by thomzi12 »

b33j0r wrote: post #46

I came of age in the industry when there was little distinction (python guy since 2004 or so). That provides many pros and cons. The more you know broadly, the smarter you’ll sound. And generally, you will tend to be more useful and fulfilled. If you want a career that is focused, you have to choose a focus. I’ve struggled with that. You need a broad base of knowledge to be good at understanding all things, and how t…

Yeah that's fair -- maybe just focusing on becoming an expert in data and ML engineering in the long-run is a more prudent career choice than totally dropping those for another corner of engineering. There's some wisdom here.

Re: I became a software engineer after 5 years in data science

#55

Post by wheelinsupial »

thundergolfer wrote: post #18
cellis wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Upvoted not because I agree, but because I'm genuinely interested in the discussion. What is the difference in your opinion?

This only opinion piece on the issue worth reading, because it's the only one that bothered to seek the opinions of the people that would know best: those people that have been software engineers _and_ some other kind of engineer. https://www.hillelwayne.com/post/are-we-really-engineers/

I think I'm missing something, but why is an opinion piece needed on this issue? Software engineering is a licensed engineering profession in many places. It used to be possible to be licensed as a software engineering in the United States [1, 2](little demand caused the licensing exams to be discontinued, possibly because regulation wasn't enforced, according to [2]). So, I think it's fair to say enough of the engineering profession has spoken to say software is a branch of engineering.

What I think are the relevant extracts from the article:

> “Do you consider software engineering actually engineering?”

> Of the 17 crossovers I talked to, 15 said yes.

> That said, many of the crossovers [3] also added an additional qualification: software engineering is real engineering, but a lot of people who write software aren’t doing software engineering. This is not a problem with them, rather a problem with our field: we don’t have a rich enough vocabulary to talk about what these developers do.

The engineering field has developed a vocabulary for different professionals in the field. Why can't this be applied to the software field since it is a form of engineering? There are engineers, technologists, technicians, and trades (at least where I am). The issue is there are education and work experience requirements that lead to licensing, which people will say are inequitable and gatekeeping [4]. From 2, there was an experience-only path available to get software engineering licensure, so if the field really wants it, there seems to be precedent to allow for alternative routes into those titles.

[1] https://ncees.org/engineering/pe/software/

[2] https://www.nspe.org/resources/pe-magazine/may-2018/ncees-en...

[3] The definition of "crossovers:" "people who used to be professional engineers and then became professional software developers. I call these people crossovers, hybrids between the two worlds."

[4] I'm sympathetic to these concerns. I studied engineering technology and worked as a technologist at the beginning of my career. I wanted to become a mechanical engineer, but I couldn't afford to return to school full time to complete the remaining 2 years for the BEng. (My school offered a 2 year diploma for engineering technologists, which led directly to years 3 and 4 year of the BEng.) When I wanted to complete the degree, a full time course load was required (7 courses per term at my school) for the engineering program to maintain accreditation.

Re: I became a software engineer after 5 years in data science

#56

Post by legerdemain »

thomzi12 wrote: post #53
legerdemain wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ME (at not-Google): I wanna do a 12-week dev bootcamp! MY LEAD: Uhhhh... What if it was two weeks long, tops? Or even less? MY ASSIGNED HR PERSON: Great, let's process your leave of absence! We'll cut your benefits and convert your stock options so you'll have to buy them out a lot sooner than you were prepared to!

Taking that much time off of any job is pretty hard to do! The real goal of a bootcamp though (besides networking) is adding a project to your portfolio. You can then show off this project to hiring managers to demonstrate your competence. You don't need to do a full-time bootcamp to make this happen! I just checked and Flatiron school and Hack Reactor both have online part-time full-stack bootcamps. Also, while not…

I didn't end up doing a bootcamp in the end. I sort of wish I did: friends of mine who did ended up with some strong connections as a result. Then again, someone else I know had an extremely negative experience with Hack Reactor and lost thousands of dollars in it, so maybe it's for the best that I didn't go.

Re: I became a software engineer after 5 years in data science

#57

Post by wheelinsupial »

cellis wrote: post #16
system2 wrote: post #2

Unless studied software engineering, you can switch to become an "engineer"? Wouldn't be software developer term more fitting?

Upvoted not because I agree, but because I'm genuinely interested in the discussion. What is the difference in your opinion?

Software engineering is a branch of engineering in many countries. Engineering follows the engineering design process [1] and uses applied science. So, to me, people doing software engineering (regardless of laws / licenses) are following an approximation of the engineering design process. A software developer is anyone getting paid to write or produce software regardless of approach or knowledge of CS topics.

On a spectrum, there are software developers that follow the engineering design process and use all sorts of knowledge of applied science, but there are also those who make it all up as they go along and rediscover or rename concepts independently. Each approach comes with its own associated benefits and tradeoffs, and there are times and places where the latter end of the spectrum can be desirable.

At least that's my hot take.

[1] https://www.mcgill.ca/engineeringdesign/step-step-design-pro...

Re: I became a software engineer after 5 years in data science

#58

Post by b33j0r »

thomzi12 wrote: post #54
b33j0r wrote: post #46

I came of age in the industry when there was little distinction (python guy since 2004 or so). That provides many pros and cons. The more you know broadly, the smarter you’ll sound. And generally, you will tend to be more useful and fulfilled. If you want a career that is focused, you have to choose a focus. I’ve struggled with that. You need a broad base of knowledge to be good at understanding all things, and how t…

Yeah that's fair -- maybe just focusing on becoming an expert in data and ML engineering in the long-run is a more prudent career choice than totally dropping those for another corner of engineering. There's some wisdom here.

Don’t take it as discouragement from being a generalist, in er… general.

But strike where the iron is hot.

Right now the future is ML, not learning the intricacies of the 2022 tech stack.

Heck, I’m an automation enthusiast, but if that’s my only trick and I’m good at it, I’m out of work like next week ;)

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