In Steve Yegge’s linked post: > Math is a lot easier to pick up after you know how to program. In fact, if you're a halfway decent programmer, you'll find it's almost a snap. This couldn’t be more wrong. Mathematics is the hardest thing I have ever done. I’m sorry, but mathematics is orders of magnitude more intensive and difficult than most programming. A simple fact that shows this is the amount of programmers who…
The Mathematical Hacker (2012)
51–60 of 186 posts
Re: The Mathematical Hacker (2012)
#52In Steve Yegge’s linked post: > Math is a lot easier to pick up after you know how to program. In fact, if you're a halfway decent programmer, you'll find it's almost a snap. This couldn’t be more wrong. Mathematics is the hardest thing I have ever done. I’m sorry, but mathematics is orders of magnitude more intensive and difficult than most programming. A simple fact that shows this is the amount of programmers who…
I disagree because Math is programming. All those symbols you see map to a set of steps (a program.). It’s just knowing what subroutine every esoteric symbol stands for that’s hard. I will agree it’s been more difficult learning math than programming for myself as well: but that’s because math is geared and targeted for people who like doing symbolic logic by hand. Math people think we’re a level below them (we are i…
Simply not true. Most mathematical statements, e.g. proofs of existence have no relation to a "program".
>math is geared and targeted for people who like doing symbolic logic by hand.
No, it is not. There is absolutely nothing interesting about symbol manipulation, it is always the least interesting part of a proof. It usually is the part the author handwaves away, while focusing on the actual interesting parts, the idea behind the proof and the possible intuitions for them. Textbook might include them, but as training and because you need to be more explicit when teaching.
Re: The Mathematical Hacker (2012)
#53In Steve Yegge’s linked post: > Math is a lot easier to pick up after you know how to program. In fact, if you're a halfway decent programmer, you'll find it's almost a snap. This couldn’t be more wrong. Mathematics is the hardest thing I have ever done. I’m sorry, but mathematics is orders of magnitude more intensive and difficult than most programming. A simple fact that shows this is the amount of programmers who…
But what level of programming and mathematics are you comparing here though? because college-level algebra and calculus is really not that hard imho (once it "clicks" for you, but it's the same for programming), and if we are comparing math as in what you see in a BSc/Msc of Mathematics (or research-level) then I agree it's hard but you have to compare for an equivalent level of programming.
> simple fact that shows this is the amount of programmers who have no formal training in engineering or computer science but we’re able to self-teach the concepts. The same cannot be said of mathematics
I would blame it more on the fact that programming is a very useful tool for people outside Computer-Science, it has very direct applications and you can monetize it very easily, so it's very likely that they might want to learn it, however, rarely you see someone deciding to take Calculus just for the sake of it if they never bothered with it in College.
Overall I agree with you, but personally I find math more difficult, most people probably do but I don't think it's inherently more difficult, it's just that people are less used to study it.
Re: The Mathematical Hacker (2012)
#54In Steve Yegge’s linked post: > Math is a lot easier to pick up after you know how to program. In fact, if you're a halfway decent programmer, you'll find it's almost a snap. This couldn’t be more wrong. Mathematics is the hardest thing I have ever done. I’m sorry, but mathematics is orders of magnitude more intensive and difficult than most programming. A simple fact that shows this is the amount of programmers who…
For me the opposite was true. My mathematical education made it incredibly easy to pick up programming and programming languages, everything was somewhat familiar and the concepts just came naturally.
Re: The Mathematical Hacker (2012)
#55Re: The Mathematical Hacker (2012)
#56In Steve Yegge’s linked post: > Math is a lot easier to pick up after you know how to program. In fact, if you're a halfway decent programmer, you'll find it's almost a snap. This couldn’t be more wrong. Mathematics is the hardest thing I have ever done. I’m sorry, but mathematics is orders of magnitude more intensive and difficult than most programming. A simple fact that shows this is the amount of programmers who…
For me the opposite was true. My mathematical education made it incredibly easy to pick up programming and programming languages, everything was somewhat familiar and the concepts just came naturally.
Someone may be led into thinking you're countering the OP.
Re: The Mathematical Hacker (2012)
#57Earlier quoted context omitted.
Never mind calculus; a non-trivial fraction of the U.S. population has trouble learning elementary algebra . The fact that the U.S. K-12 educational system is notoriously a failure compared to otherwise similar countries should not be used to draw inferences about the inherent worth of any particular subject. Not least because that same system also often fails to teach functional literacy, or any amount of basic fact…
Then why do all New England states outcompete most European countries? Why is most STEM research produced in Eastern Europe, the US, or China? This really depends on what metrics you are using and has infinite room for gaming. US undergrads (both native and foreign born) absolutely crush all of these nondescript places you are suggesting are better, and graduate programs make the gap even wider. A non trivial fractio…
The US was a neat idea we had but it went a little off-kilter around the second half of Pennsylvania.
Re: The Mathematical Hacker (2012)
#58In Steve Yegge’s linked post: > Math is a lot easier to pick up after you know how to program. In fact, if you're a halfway decent programmer, you'll find it's almost a snap. This couldn’t be more wrong. Mathematics is the hardest thing I have ever done. I’m sorry, but mathematics is orders of magnitude more intensive and difficult than most programming. A simple fact that shows this is the amount of programmers who…
I think Yegge is actually completely correct. I started to learn to program when I was 14, and once I understood the concept of functions, I found it much easier to do my calculus and physics work. Fundamentally I understood how to break things down into computable steps. Granted, I think get the impression we might be overloading the term "mathematics".
So my question is: Did you study analysis and would you credit programming in helping you get good at it?
Re: The Mathematical Hacker (2012)
#59For me math is more of a received wisdom. I'll have a problem I need to solve, and as part of that, I need to compute some function. But the naive version of the function that I was taught (say, factorial function) is slow, and might fail because of integer data types outside their range. In comes my professor, who mentions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling%27s_approximation which allows me to complete my project and graduate in time. Said professor also derived analytic derivatives of our objective function, since at the time (1993-4) we didn't have autodifferentiation.
At the time, I didn't really think too much about it. I had a problem and somebody handed me a practical solution. But I got curious... what was this gamma function and why is it defined over floats (reals!) over integers? And so that led down a rabbit hole of mathematical exploration (most of which was executed using a highly worn copy of Mathematical Recipes in C).
Another example is the mandelbrot set. You can take the raw definition and attempt to compute set members but your calculation will never complete. Instead, clever math people figured out ways to compute an approximately right answer faster- and in some cases, optimized for the limited hardware of the time (see FRACTINT for an integer-based fractal program for x86 machines pre-floating point hardware). This and many other tricks made fractal exploration on consumer hardware practical (although probably not very useful?)
Over time I've come to be better at math- at understanding concepts- and the relationship between practical high performance computing and both the underlying math and physics that are required to do it effectively. I've learned so many different ways to approach problems compared to when I started, much of it because I continued to learn more math, and practice at it. I see a close relationship between computing theory and the math/physics that enabled it (IE, transistors and vacuum tubes before them, and mechanical gears and switched before that).
I've also realized that I can learn some math easily- for example, more or less anything on a cartesian grid- while other things, like complex symbolics or tree structured algorithms- take a lot more thinking.
To me it's an endless world of unknown delights that I stumble across and periodically take 20+ years to understand. I am just now solving problems that my smarter grad school friends managed to do in a day, 20 years ago, because they're better at math (and logic, and memory, and more...)
Re: The Mathematical Hacker (2012)
#60In Steve Yegge’s linked post: > Math is a lot easier to pick up after you know how to program. In fact, if you're a halfway decent programmer, you'll find it's almost a snap. This couldn’t be more wrong. Mathematics is the hardest thing I have ever done. I’m sorry, but mathematics is orders of magnitude more intensive and difficult than most programming. A simple fact that shows this is the amount of programmers who…
I disagree because Math is programming. All those symbols you see map to a set of steps (a program.). It’s just knowing what subroutine every esoteric symbol stands for that’s hard. I will agree it’s been more difficult learning math than programming for myself as well: but that’s because math is geared and targeted for people who like doing symbolic logic by hand. Math people think we’re a level below them (we are i…
Much (most?) of math is quite different from it. Proving that there is a well ordering of the reals, and simultaneously proving that it is impossible to show you such an ordering: Very different from skills needed in programming.