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No Other Options: Newly revealed documents depict Canadian euthanasia regime

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Re: No Other Options: Newly revealed documents depict Canadian euthanasia regime

#51

Post by VancouverMan »

voisin wrote: post #25
throwawaymaths wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are cases where people do want to live but are counseled into suicide.

Being counselled to suicide should be ineffective if they want to live, no? This isn’t a 30 hour police interrogation without food, water, or sleep. Options are presented, and in some cases living with the debilitating sickness is worse than suicide. I think if they want to live, it is likely they want to live if the debilitating illness wasn’t there, but given that fact they choose death.

There's a significant cultural aspect we need to consider, too.

Many Canadians, especially older ones who grew up when Canada was still a very high-trust society, have what could be described as a reverence for authority figures. This involves a significant degree of obedience, bordering on subservience.

Medical professionals are often among the most revered authority figures to these Canadians, even to the point of being seen as infallible. There are Canadians who won't question any advice made, nor any suggestions given, by these medical professionals.

If a medical professional were to recommend euthanasia to these kind of Canadians, even if it wasn't something that they really wanted to do, I think a significant proportion would feel obliged to go along with it, as irrational as this may seem.

This attitude became quite apparent over the last three years, when many Canadians completely bought into the many obviously nonsensical, and sometimes even outright harmful, policies being pushed by medical professionals and public health officials.

At the same time, however, those three years have been a significant eye-opener for some Canadians, too. For these people, the trust they once had in the various medical professions was completely shattered.

With a larger proportion of the Canadian population no longer trusting Canada's medical professionals and health care systems, it doesn't surprise me at all that we're starting to see more questioning of policies such as this one.

Re: No Other Options: Newly revealed documents depict Canadian euthanasia regime

#52

Post by tomrod »

goatsi wrote: post #45

>One of the greatest reasons for concern is the sheer scale of Canada’s euthanasia regime. California provides a useful point of comparison: It legalized medically assisted death the same year as Canada, 2016, and it has about the same population, just under forty million. In 2021 in California, 486 people died using the state’s assisted suicide program. In Canada in the same year, 10,064 people used MAID to die. 70%…

Could you point to the stats for the other 3,000? This is an interesting case. It shows the categories of health issues that seek assisted suicide.

Re: No Other Options: Newly revealed documents depict Canadian euthanasia regime

#53

Post by WoodenChair »

bjt2n3904 wrote: post #42
voisin wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being counselled to suicide should be ineffective if they want to live, no? This isn’t a 30 hour police interrogation without food, water, or sleep. Options are presented, and in some cases living with the debilitating sickness is worse than suicide. I think if they want to live, it is likely they want to live if the debilitating illness wasn’t there, but given that fact they choose death.

Quoted post unavailable.

And the fact that your comment was getting downvoted is also stunning. The lack of empathy in these comment threads is astounding. From the general tone, it feels like there are many people who have never dealt with anyone who is severely depressed and just don't know how on the edge that position really is. It doesn't take much to convince someone who is severely depressed to finish it off. A doctor even bringing up the option may be enough to cause ideation, and yes it's much worse if the suggestion comes from an authority figure or someone who is ostensibly there for "your health."

Re: No Other Options: Newly revealed documents depict Canadian euthanasia regime

#54

Post by goatsi »

tomrod wrote: post #52
goatsi wrote: post #45

>One of the greatest reasons for concern is the sheer scale of Canada’s euthanasia regime. California provides a useful point of comparison: It legalized medically assisted death the same year as Canada, 2016, and it has about the same population, just under forty million. In 2021 in California, 486 people died using the state’s assisted suicide program. In Canada in the same year, 10,064 people used MAID to die. 70%…

Could you point to the stats for the other 3,000? This is an interesting case. It shows the categories of health issues that seek assisted suicide.

Here you go: https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/medical-assi...

>The majority of persons receiving MAID during 2020 were reported as having cancer as their main underlying medical condition (69.1%). This is followed by cardiovascular conditions (13.8%), chronic respiratory conditions (11.3%) and neurological conditions (10.2%)

Some additional breakdowns:

>Cardiovascular conditions were the second most frequently cited main condition for persons receiving MAID. Congestive heart failure was the most frequently cited heart condition in this category (42.2%). Under respiratory conditions, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) was the most frequently listed condition.

>Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS), also commonly known as Lou Gehrig's disease, was the leading neurological condition reported for persons receiving MAID (35.2%), followed by Parkinson's disease (18.1%) multiple sclerosis (MS) (9.7%), and progressive supranuclear palsy (4.4%).

Edit: Just realized that was the 2020 report (with around 7500 using MAID). The 2021 report is here: https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/medical-assi.... Cancer is down a bit in this one (69% to 65%).

Re: No Other Options: Newly revealed documents depict Canadian euthanasia regime

#55

Post by FpUser »

dbt00 wrote: post #12
mmastrac wrote: post #3

The whole argument against MAID feels ridiculously like the anti-abortion position. The other option to providing it is having them end their life in a way that might be risky or fail to succeed in a way that leaves them painfully scarred for life or suffering more than they had to. Why are people forced to live if they don't want to?

I don't have a problem with people getting MAID, but I do have a problem with medical practitioners pushing it on people who want to live but can't get basic resources to deal with very manageable disabilities.

>"but I do have a problem with medical practitioners pushing it on people who want to live but can't get basic resources"

Same here. This fucking abomination of a doctor should be screaming bloody hell and knocking on government doors to have them address the problem.

Here we are: rich developed democratic country basically telling our poor to go fuck themselves and die.

Re: No Other Options: Newly revealed documents depict Canadian euthanasia regime

#56

Post by mmastrac »

willhslade wrote: post #49
mmastrac wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The breakdown of MAID by main condition is interesting, and suggests that the vast majority (~70%) are cancer patients avoiding a painful, prolonged and terrible death. This would also suggest that once we get even better at cancer treatments, the rate of people dying to MAID will drop dramatically. Later in the stats, ~80% of people have lost the ability to engage in activities of daily life (which IMO is a terrible…

There have also been many reports of people, mostly disabled, who are unable to work or afford rent in Ontario, who have applied to medically assisted death rather than face homelessness. This might be both brinksmanship and gamesmanship, but it's extremely distasteful that we are here as a society.

Your claim requires some specific evidence (reports meaning one, two, ten?), and that would need to be both weighed against the immense relief in suffering enjoyed by the people who are demonstrably benefiting now, as well as the freedom for people to control their own destiny.

Re: No Other Options: Newly revealed documents depict Canadian euthanasia regime

#57

Post by dang »

bjt2n3904 wrote: post #42
voisin wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being counselled to suicide should be ineffective if they want to live, no? This isn’t a 30 hour police interrogation without food, water, or sleep. Options are presented, and in some cases living with the debilitating sickness is worse than suicide. I think if they want to live, it is likely they want to live if the debilitating illness wasn’t there, but given that fact they choose death.

Quoted post unavailable.

Would you please stop posting ideological flamewar comments to HN, regardless of how right you are or feel you are? You're welcome to be on either side of this issue, but your comments are standing out in this thread as particularly inflammatory and battle-modey. That's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Edit: we've had to warn you about this already more than once, such as here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25787944 (Jan 2021)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25201510 (Nov 2020)

Moreover, it looks like you've been using HN primarily for ideological battle, or perilously close thereto. That's one line at which we ban accounts (see https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...). If you'd please stop doing that, we'd appreciate it. We want curious conversation here.

Re: No Other Options: Newly revealed documents depict Canadian euthanasia regime

#58

Post by FpUser »

ArtemZ wrote: post #50
mmastrac wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have bad news for you. You will never gain the ability to pick and choose what your taxes fund, and the other people paying taxes have entirely different sets of important things that they wish to fund, and different sets of things that they are horrified that their taxes are supporting.

I'm actually kind of able to pick where my taxes are going. By moving to other countries. Surely, Canada is not going to be on the list.

Last time I checked with some exceptions especially for very rich people can't just go and land in a country of their choice. It is a rather long process that often does not lead to desired outcome.

Re: No Other Options: Newly revealed documents depict Canadian euthanasia regime

#59

Post by rayiner »

mmastrac wrote: post #3

The whole argument against MAID feels ridiculously like the anti-abortion position. The other option to providing it is having them end their life in a way that might be risky or fail to succeed in a way that leaves them painfully scarred for life or suffering more than they had to. Why are people forced to live if they don't want to?

> Why are people forced to live if they don't want to?

Because we live in a society, not some libertarian utopia of sovereign citizens. Your life doesn’t belong only to yourself, but it belongs to all of us. Your parents, your kids, your friends, your acquaintances. We are all affected by what you do to yourself and, concomitantly, get a say in it.

Re: No Other Options: Newly revealed documents depict Canadian euthanasia regime

#60

Post by ramraj07 »

CosmicShadow wrote: post #36

Seems like a stretching propaganda hit piece from the anti-abortion crowd stretching into calling the "current" Canadian Government in power a "regime" that kills poor people by...get this...convincing doctors to convincingly get poor and unhealthy people to go past every fucking alarm bell and human instinct and literally kill themselves with their assistance to somehow be less of a burden on the state? Somehow a sm…

> go past every fucking alarm bell and human instinct

This is mind blowingly archaic as an attitude and very dangerous. Maybe you don’t know many people or are lucky to only be surrounded by mentally healthy individuals but many in the spectrum of depression and other ailments which are pretty common feel suicidal. They fight the urge not to consider this fate. If a doctor comes and tells them maybe you should consider killing your self, it’s alright, I’ll help you, guess what, they’re going to feel utterly helpless.

Agreed that MAD for cancer patients and patients with unimaginable incurable chronic pain is not bad, but there needs to be immense scrutiny into every case where this dangerous tool is used for people who have mental disorders.

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