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Z-Wave Alliance Announces Z-Wave Source Code Project Now Open and Available

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Re: Z-Wave Alliance Announces Z-Wave Source Code Project Now Open and Available

#51

Post by dmm »

manv1 wrote: post #14
nicolaslem wrote: post #3

With all tech giants putting their weight behind a competing (open) standard, z-wave is probably feeling the pressure to adapt or become irrelevant.

Yeah,it's going to be tough. However, the one good thing about Z-Wave (even relative to zigbee) is interoperability - devices pretty much work for the most part, even with generic drivers. At some point there'll be a matter/thread bridge to z-wave. The big question about matter/thread devices is cost. The second is going to be security. If they're IPv6 then they're globally addressable, which is bad bad bad. How is t…

> If they're IPv6 then they're globally addressable

All ipv6 addresses are routeable but that doesn't mean reachable. Link local and Unique local addresses are examples of non-global ipv6 addresses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unique_local_address

Re: Z-Wave Alliance Announces Z-Wave Source Code Project Now Open and Available

#52

Post by X-Istence »

I installed Z-Wave all over my house. Replaced all the switches, got the sensors, light bulbs where necessary, everything was Z-Wave... and it was a nightmare.

I ended up selling the house with everything Z-Wave still in it, and the new owners were happy to have a "Smart Home" capable home, but I will never again touch Z-Wave.

Once your Z-Wave network grows past a certain number of devices it becomes too chatty and devices will be unable to communicate data. That led to motion sensors being incredibly slow and or not triggering when needed. Light bulbs wouldn't change colors until seconds or sometimes minutes later when the network was freed up enough to send the commands.

These days I have three systems: Zigbee (through Ikea TRADFRI and Philips Hue), Lutron (Caseta wireless), and Thread (through HomeKit).

I have a bunch of sensors on both Zigbee and Thread and they fire in HomeKit and HomeKit takes actions to turn on/off lights as necessary.

Lights turn on/off almost instantly, motion sensors just work (the Thread ones especially are incredibly fast), I've got temperature sensors/lightbulbs on Thread as well.

I am looking forward to seeing what Matter/Thread bring next as that is definitely where I will be concentrating my purchases. Z-Wave had a chance, and unfortunately it did not seem architected/high bandwidth enough for the amount of devices I ended up having on my Z-Wave network (~200 devices)...

Re: Z-Wave Alliance Announces Z-Wave Source Code Project Now Open and Available

#53

Post by X-Istence »

vardump wrote: post #47
ars wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Z-Wave is definitely the better protocol (vs Zigbee), but Matter is partially based on Zigbee so everyone expects Z-Wave to lose. I don't agree, I think Z-wave will work with Matter using bridging.

Any reasoning why? My home automation is 95%+ Zigbee, and I don't see any issues. Mesh networking works very nicely, reaching far corners of the house.

Z-Wave's mesh networking was a giant pain to get functioning correctly, and good luck if devices were multiple hops away... things would just randomly fall off the network.

With Zigbee (IKEA TRADFRI and Philips Hue) I haven' had any of those issues, nor with any of my Thread devices.

Re: Z-Wave Alliance Announces Z-Wave Source Code Project Now Open and Available

#54

Post by oflannabhra »

I see a lot of confusion in the thread regarding IoT, and to clear up some of that, IoT operates across multiple different layers of the OSI model: PHY, Network, Application. PHY is how data is modulated (think radios, etc), Network is how data is shared / routed (think WiFi), Application is the contents of the data across the network (ie, Light: Off)

IEEE 802.15.4 - a PHY standard, equivalent to 802.11 standards that WiFi is built on top of.

Z-Wave - a recently acquired technology that vertically slices the entire OSI model, defining PHY interaction, network communication, and application. SiLabs recently acquired it, but it has always only offered chips from a single company.

Zigbee - multiple versions of several standards: the most popular used the 802.15.4 standard for the PHY, but used custom networking and custom application layers.

Thread - a 6LoWPan mesh network protocol, built on top of 802.15.4. It provides the Networking layer, but does not define application layers. Allows for IPv6 traffic. It also defines some security and BLE interop. Lots of companies make Thread chips and offer their own Thread stacks

Matter - an Application layer standard that defines the shape and behavior of messages sent across a variety of different networking technologies: Thread, WiFi, etc. Requires IPv6, and potentially border routers to translate the PHY differences.

Re: Z-Wave Alliance Announces Z-Wave Source Code Project Now Open and Available

#55

Post by ocdtrekkie »

vardump wrote: post #49
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Z-Wave is a better technology. I want home automation hardware to be simple, reliable, and not Internet connected.

I'm using no cloud Zigbee home automation. Seems to be very reliable and has really great range thanks to the mesh networking. It's also really simple. Zigbee allows using multiple vendors with ease, not tied to just one manufacturer. Again, no internet connection required.

I'm using Insteon personally, which is mesh networked but relatively similar to Z-Wave. (And it's entirely proprietary still.)

It's not just about cloud connectivity though: I don't want my home automation hardware speaking IP or anything like it. Nor do I want them to need a complicated enough protocol to justify requirements like firmware updates. All of this introduces opportunities for security flaws and the ability to create botnets.

Home automation hardware should be simple, take simple instructions over local communication bands, and then a single central controller should bring the greater intelligence and access.

I think my Insteon thermostat is nearly the ideal smarthome product: It's a thermostat, and can work entirely standalone as just that. It cannot be updated or reprogrammed. But it will accept commands (no different than button presses on the front of it) over the RF protocol, and of course, send its sensor data and operating status.

Things like incidents where Nests had software updates that let everyone freeze or whatever in the winter just... isn't really a concern with a good design like this.

Re: Z-Wave Alliance Announces Z-Wave Source Code Project Now Open and Available

#56

Post by Izkata »

ars wrote: post #30
Izkata wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some years ago when I was getting into this it looked to me like Z-Wave was winning. Did something happen?

Z-Wave is definitely the better protocol (vs Zigbee), but Matter is partially based on Zigbee so everyone expects Z-Wave to lose. I don't agree, I think Z-wave will work with Matter using bridging.

> so everyone expects

Hmm..

> Matter started life in 2019 as Project CHIP (Connected Home over IP), a collaboration between some of the biggest players in tech; Apple, Google, Amazon, Samsung, the Zigbee Alliance, and various other tech brands, which aimed to create a unified smart home standard. [0]

Ahh, that explains it. I bought most of my devices a few years before this existed, and having those companies involved pretty much guarantees people expecting this to succeed over anything else.

Honestly though, Google and Amazon being involved make me less interested in it. It pretty much guarantees requiring a cloud connection.

[0] https://www.the-ambient.com/guides/matter-smart-home-explain...

Re: Z-Wave Alliance Announces Z-Wave Source Code Project Now Open and Available

#57

Post by horsawlarway »

bioemerl wrote: post #48
horsawlarway wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally - I got kinda the other feel. Seems like Z-Wave is slowly dying in favor of zigbee devices. I can't really even find z-wave bulbs right now. And basically any device I might want (curtains, alarms, sensors, lights, motors, thermostats, etc) comes in a zigbee form. I agree that Z-Wave did the better standards enforcement, but Zigbee went with the age old route to success: manage to be cheaper. Throw in that…

In my experience both are dying in favor of iot/wifi stuff. Zwave is still strong in the commercial space ZigBee is strong in the consumer space, especially light bulbs that commercial systems do not want to use. I'm thinking it'll be longer before zwave dies for real vs zigbee, but it will only live on the back of the big slow commercial entities that back it.

I don't really see Zigbee dying right now. Hell - I used it before home automation was really a thing back in college almost 15 years ago now, and it's going strong today.

Hue has always been all-in on Zigbee. (incl the new 3.0 standard - https://developers.meethue.com/zigbee-3-0-support-in-hue-eco...)

Ikea has gone basically all-in on Zigbee (https://www.wired.co.uk/article/ikea-smart-home-kit-reviewed...)

Amazon is embedding it their devices (At least 4 different models include a zigbee hub: https://developer.amazon.com/en-US/docs/alexa/smarthome/zigb...)

Wifi is basically a non-starter for any real automation since it takes a boat load of power, and requires a non-local server (at least without some serious work on your part). It's a great intro spot for consumers who want to try a color changing bulb they can control with their phone, since the initial buy in cost is lower with no hub - but it's not really the same.

For z-wave on the other hand... I literally cannot find a place to buy a-19 standard socket bulbs that support it right now. Lots of "controller kits" but no bulbs.

Same for thermostats - there's like 3 z-wave thermostats on amazon right now. There are dozens of zigbee models.

Honestly - on Amazon at least, a lot of searches for "z-wave [device]" end up returning mostly zigbee results.

Ex: Go search Amazon for "Z-wave plug": Row 3 starts to return zigbee devices.

Go search again for "Zigbee plug": It's zigbee devices all the way down the page (one early result does both zigbee and z-wave, but otherwise you have scroll waaay down to see any overlap)

Basically - Having both Ikea and Amazon go in on Zigbee has radically shifted the market from where it was 3 years ago (when I would have probably agreed that z-wave was the better pick).

Re: Z-Wave Alliance Announces Z-Wave Source Code Project Now Open and Available

#58

Post by montjoy »

X-Istence wrote: post #52

I installed Z-Wave all over my house. Replaced all the switches, got the sensors, light bulbs where necessary, everything was Z-Wave... and it was a nightmare. I ended up selling the house with everything Z-Wave still in it, and the new owners were happy to have a "Smart Home" capable home, but I will never again touch Z-Wave. Once your Z-Wave network grows past a certain number of devices it becomes too chatty and d…

Sounds like you had some non-zwave+ devices or you were using a lot of s0 encryption. Both are known to slow down the network. Like everything it’s gotten better over time. The 700 series stuff is pretty quick.

Re: Z-Wave Alliance Announces Z-Wave Source Code Project Now Open and Available

#59

Post by oflannabhra »

xattt wrote: post #44
Lendal wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The new Thread protocol (part of Matter) is basically Zigbee on steroids which gets it up to parity with Z-wave. The reason to choose Z-wave over Thread is that Z-wave works now and has many devices available to buy, while Thread works in theory and the devices are very few in number. Thread devices are due out in force next year. So this actually is perfect timing for Z-wave to make this move now, right as the first…

There were a bunch of missed opportunities for Zigbee to become enshrined in the home. For example, the first and second-gen Nest thermostats had a Zigbee radio built-in. At acquisition by Google, Nest heavily leaned into the wifi/cloud side for control and the Zigbee radio was squandered, other than for some esoteric “Works with Nest” protocol that maybe 2 other third-party devices supported. Edit: I stand corrected…

That is an inaccurate history. Nest has always been IP-based and drove much of the initial Thread standard. Their radio was 802.15.4, but not Zigbee.

Re: Z-Wave Alliance Announces Z-Wave Source Code Project Now Open and Available

#60

Post by Semaphor »

synergy20 wrote: post #36
horsawlarway wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally - I got kinda the other feel. Seems like Z-Wave is slowly dying in favor of zigbee devices. I can't really even find z-wave bulbs right now. And basically any device I might want (curtains, alarms, sensors, lights, motors, thermostats, etc) comes in a zigbee form. I agree that Z-Wave did the better standards enforcement, but Zigbee went with the age old route to success: manage to be cheaper. Throw in that…

that's new to me, did not track this field for a few years. zigbee protocol was too complex in the past for me on resource restricted devices, while zwave is so much light-weight, then that's just the technical side. maybe that's why z-wave now opens up, it's forced to do so or it dies.

Zigbee was bigger in Europe, Z-Wave in the US. Or at least that was what I always read ;)

Philips Hue was always the big "Zigbee? Never heard of that" Zigbee producer, nowadays, there are also good and cost-effective things from Sonoff and Aqara, and cheap but hit-or-miss devices by tuya (heavily white labeled)

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