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Programs are dead, and JavaScript has killed them

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Re: Programs are dead, and JavaScript has killed them

#51

Post by hutzlibu »

yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #36
hutzlibu wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a counter point: I have simple node scripts, that serve the same purpose to me. And there was also the need to fix something 2 days ago in an 8 year old script. Opened the file, changed the code and running it again. Took 5 minutes and it just worked. I don't use js because it is the hot new thing, but rather because it is simple. (But I avoid messy and obscure npm repositories wherever possible for example.)

> I don't use js because it is the hot new thing, but rather because it is simple . It infamously isn't. https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat

Hm, video arguments are not my take, I did not watch it (yet), but in either case this seems to be opinion.

But of course, javascript is so simple, that it is not suitable for complex problems. No (sane) person would ever claim, that it is the right language for every problem.

Re: Programs are dead, and JavaScript has killed them

#53

Post by enjikaka »

Tools like Babel emerged to bridge a compatibility gap between the evolving ECMAScript specification and the browser lacking behind implementing the new features. Then some "smart" people decided Babel would be a good thing to transform anything and thus React, JSX and the like were born. The problem emerged and took foot when we stopped polyfilling and transpiling the compability gap and instead built further on the powers of these tools and coupled us too tightly with them.

People need to learn to build on and use the platform. Do NOT learn React, Node.js or Tailwind. Learn HTML, JS and CSS. Use these in your projects and they will work forever.

The standards are backwards compatible and evergreen. Your walled garden withers.

Re: Programs are dead, and JavaScript has killed them

#54

Post by canadianfella »

hpeinar wrote: post #49
bluocms wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why learn cmd and bash when you can just learn js? Easier to maintain 1 language than 1+. My software in js from 7 years ago still works.

But it's not that simple, for an example I have older personal projects as well which I'm unable to run without doing considerable changes to the code after moving to M1 chip. Just because I'm unable to run older versions of node and thus unable to run some of the dependencies and thus need to update the dependencies and then the code etcetc. Yes, I could use docker and containers... Yes, I could use Rosetta... But i…

No post body was provided.

Re: Programs are dead, and JavaScript has killed them

#55

Post by mirthflat83 »

enjikaka wrote: post #53

Tools like Babel emerged to bridge a compatibility gap between the evolving ECMAScript specification and the browser lacking behind implementing the new features. Then some "smart" people decided Babel would be a good thing to transform anything and thus React, JSX and the like were born. The problem emerged and took foot when we stopped polyfilling and transpiling the compability gap and instead built further on the…

Learning React, Node.js, and Tailwind doesn’t mean that you’re not learning HTML, JS, or CSS…

Re: Programs are dead, and JavaScript has killed them

#56

Post by lloydatkinson »

enjikaka wrote: post #53

Tools like Babel emerged to bridge a compatibility gap between the evolving ECMAScript specification and the browser lacking behind implementing the new features. Then some "smart" people decided Babel would be a good thing to transform anything and thus React, JSX and the like were born. The problem emerged and took foot when we stopped polyfilling and transpiling the compability gap and instead built further on the…

> Then some "smart" people decided Babel would be a good thing to transform anything and thus React ... and the like were born

Is this a serious comment? You're playing into the typical HN bandwagon of hate on anything web related. React is a library for declarative UI and state management. It doesn't need Babel or even JSX to be used. It can be used in the browser with no build tools at all. Except no one does that, because productivity of tooling is a massive win.

Your complaint about polyfills, transpiling, etc, is just a thinly veiled attack on React because you apparently have some gripe with it.

Re: Programs are dead, and JavaScript has killed them

#57

Post by lloydatkinson »

mirthflat83 wrote: post #55
enjikaka wrote: post #53

Tools like Babel emerged to bridge a compatibility gap between the evolving ECMAScript specification and the browser lacking behind implementing the new features. Then some "smart" people decided Babel would be a good thing to transform anything and thus React, JSX and the like were born. The problem emerged and took foot when we stopped polyfilling and transpiling the compability gap and instead built further on the…

Learning React, Node.js, and Tailwind doesn’t mean that you’re not learning HTML, JS, or CSS…

I was going to say the same but I think you said it much more clearly than I would have. I see this meme a lot. "I hate X, don't learn X, Y is better because Y is fundamental to Z".

I have not once seen these same people suggesting "Don't learn the toolkit/framework/control library for your OS, instead use raw WinAPI or X System calls and push raw pixels to build applications".

Yet, they push for the same with HTML. How you arrive at the HTML is up to you. By saying, for example, don't learn React, you might as well be saying "don't do anything productively, do everything in the least maintainable and the most convoluted and unnecessary way possible, your customers and team will like that surely".

Re: Programs are dead, and JavaScript has killed them

#58

Post by Zpalmtree »

yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #36
hutzlibu wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a counter point: I have simple node scripts, that serve the same purpose to me. And there was also the need to fix something 2 days ago in an 8 year old script. Opened the file, changed the code and running it again. Took 5 minutes and it just worked. I don't use js because it is the hot new thing, but rather because it is simple. (But I avoid messy and obscure npm repositories wherever possible for example.)

> I don't use js because it is the hot new thing, but rather because it is simple . It infamously isn't. https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat

Most of these are 'gotchas' that rarely happen in real code because they're all due to implicit type conversions

Re: Programs are dead, and JavaScript has killed them

#59

Post by causi »

bscphil wrote: post #45
causi wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If some app is not updating - there is not much use for it. That depends entirely on the program. My CD ripper/burner is going on twenty years old and it works flawlessly. Same with my audio recorder and the sensor viewer for my phone. On the occasion I need to make a slideshow or write a document, Office 2007 works just fine with no bullshit, granted I don't view third-party files in it. ES File Explorer Pro is stil…

> My CD ripper/burner is going on twenty years old and it works flawlessly. This is probably a good example though. The state of the art in CD ripping has advanced significantly over the last 15 years. If you care about bit-perfect rips or even just reliable error correction, it would pay to know about the advances in Exact Audio Copy (Win), XLD (Mac), or Whipper (Linux). All of these have seen releases since 2020. I…

Good to know if I ever hear an error in a track I ripped. Hasn't happened in two decades so far, but you never know.

Re: Programs are dead, and JavaScript has killed them

#60

Post by brushfoot »

There's no free lunch. JavaScript has the largest package ecosystem in the world. It's great for finding "free" UI components or server libraries for projects, but you pay for it in maintenance costs.

That said, I don't think it's as bad as this article makes it out to be. There's this kind of maintenance in a traditional server-rendered Django/Rails app, too, on both ends. You can self-host your JS scripts or fetch them from a CDN instead of using Node, but they're still deps. You still have to worry about upgrading and vulnerability scanning. It's just invisible now. The onus is on you.

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