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San Francisco police consider letting robots use ‘deadly force’

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Re: San Francisco police consider letting robots use ‘deadly force’

#51
post #26

There's a hypothesis that the social order of a society depends on the accessibility of the military tech. E.g. in Ancient Greece almost any free citizen could afford to buy the top weapon of the time (an iron or bronze sword) - hence it was very expensive for a dictator to hire a force that could deal with an armed crowd - and this is why they had a democracy. Or a free person in the 13 American colonies could affor…

> E.g. in Ancient Greece almost any free citizen could afford to buy the top weapon of the time (an iron or bronze sword)

You have an historical mistake that supports your argument here.

Bronze weapons were very expensive, due to needing tin which could not be mined locally and needed to be traded for from as far away, such as the balkans, Germany or even Britain [0]. Because of this it was only available for the rich, ie the rulers and their supporters. Bronze age Greece[1] was not democratic, and was based around kingdoms, ruled by those who had access to the bronze weapons.

The later more 'equal' (but by no means equal at all, simply more so than ruled by tyrants, they still had slaves and oppressed lower classes. It's just there was a more numerous upper/middle class) greek states were in the Iron Age. Iron was much easier and cheaper to make as it was available in large quantities locally. This lead to to the iron age weapons and armour being much more widely spread [2] and therefore they had less powerful dictators.

Not all Iron age Greek states were democracies, and those that were would not seem like fair democracies today. But partially because of the more easily accessible weapons, the power in these states was less centralised than it was when the weapons were predominantly bronze.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_sources_and_trade_in_ancie.... [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_Greece [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Dark_Ages

Re: San Francisco police consider letting robots use ‘deadly force’

#53
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell me you haven't even read the first paragraph without saying you haven't even read the first paragraph. It's about risk of loss of life to members of the public or officers is imminent , not for the officer controlling the robot.

That slope slips all the way to Hell.

Possibly, but that's a different argument and it should be made instead of some "but nobody threatens the operator"-comments.

Re: San Francisco police consider letting robots use ‘deadly force’

#54

If these are remote controlled, then there's no danger to the operator in any situation, therefore there should be less reason to require the use of deadly force. I wonder what the stats are about police needing to draw a weapon to protect someone other than themselves? (Not being facetious, genuinely wondering about the data in order to help form an opinion).

A dangerous criminal with an arrest warrant doesn't need to pose an immediate threat to the police, they can still run and then hurt or kill other innocent people down the line.

I'm not sure if this kind of rational/utilitarian approach to thinking about policing is useful, because soon you'll end up with a perfect surveillance state and robo executioners for "the greater good". Maybe throw some precrime work in there as well, because statisticians for example have found correlations between certain looks of people and likelihood to commit crime. What if statistically the benefit outweighs the harm, i.e. more harm is prevented than suffering of innocent people being wrongly accused? Should we then lock up people to prevent crimes they haven't even committed yet?

Re: San Francisco police consider letting robots use ‘deadly force’

#56

If these are remote controlled, then there's no danger to the operator in any situation, therefore there should be less reason to require the use of deadly force. I wonder what the stats are about police needing to draw a weapon to protect someone other than themselves? (Not being facetious, genuinely wondering about the data in order to help form an opinion).

A dangerous criminal with an arrest warrant doesn't need to pose an immediate threat to the police, they can still run and then hurt or kill other innocent people down the line. I'm not sure if this kind of rational/utilitarian approach to thinking about policing is useful, because soon you'll end up with a perfect surveillance state and robo executioners for "the greater good". Maybe throw some precrime work in ther…

> A dangerous criminal with an arrest warrant

While you can make an argument about using deadly force against those types of actors (although, personally, I don't think the answer is clear cut), most concerns I've seen were around using deadly force in situations where it wasn't warranted, against people who did not truly pose an immediate risk to others.

Re: San Francisco police consider letting robots use ‘deadly force’

#57

If these are remote controlled, then there's no danger to the operator in any situation, therefore there should be less reason to require the use of deadly force. I wonder what the stats are about police needing to draw a weapon to protect someone other than themselves? (Not being facetious, genuinely wondering about the data in order to help form an opinion).

A dangerous criminal with an arrest warrant doesn't need to pose an immediate threat to the police, they can still run and then hurt or kill other innocent people down the line. I'm not sure if this kind of rational/utilitarian approach to thinking about policing is useful, because soon you'll end up with a perfect surveillance state and robo executioners for "the greater good". Maybe throw some precrime work in ther…

I don't see how this is a relevant argument. Police can already use deadly force when someone poses an immediate threat to themselves or others. Using deadly force via a remote controlled robot when a suspect poses an immediate threat to others isn't an expansion of that use of force policy.

Killing somebody just because they're running from an outstanding warrant would be a new and terrible policy whether or not a robot was involved.

Re: San Francisco police consider letting robots use ‘deadly force’

#58
post #23

Imagine a terrorist cell, which has no leader, no members, no financiers but is able to attack anyway. A DAO hires gig workers to assemble a "product" in a property which it has rented, the product is then programed by the DAO to attack the city it resides in. The DAO having speculated on shares of competitors of companies within the city, moves ever onwards. Terrorism as a software glider gun. Its a major theme in m…

Fortunately what we have learned is that terrorists at the end of the day are pretty dumb. People capable of doing mass damage are not ones to soccumb to extremist ideology.

Fortunately what we have learned is that terrorists at the end of the day are pretty dumb.

Is that because the ones we don't think are dumb get called "freedom fighters"?

Re: San Francisco police consider letting robots use ‘deadly force’

#59
post #23

Imagine a terrorist cell, which has no leader, no members, no financiers but is able to attack anyway. A DAO hires gig workers to assemble a "product" in a property which it has rented, the product is then programed by the DAO to attack the city it resides in. The DAO having speculated on shares of competitors of companies within the city, moves ever onwards. Terrorism as a software glider gun. Its a major theme in m…

Fortunately what we have learned is that terrorists at the end of the day are pretty dumb. People capable of doing mass damage are not ones to soccumb to extremist ideology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting : "fired more than 1,000 bullets, killing 60 people[a] and wounding at least 413"

(and of course the big outlier in terrorism, 9/11)

Re: San Francisco police consider letting robots use ‘deadly force’

#60
Is this the police version of "Life is hard, let's go shopping!" ?

I would think policy makers inside SFPD would be working 24/7 with the politicians in order to bring down the ridiculous amount of crime SF has ( most of it isn't even reported because police now say it outright they wouldn't even bother to respond ).

It feels like when I invent things to do when I really don't want to tackle that hard problem..

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