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Why we are taking our startup to Hong Kong and other crazy stories of 2011

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Re: Why we are taking our startup to Hong Kong and other crazy stories of 2011

#51

Post by Adaptive »

latch wrote: post #37

I've been in Hong Kong for a year and a half. As a city, it's quite nice. Low taxes, extremely safe, vibrant culture. Pollution is really the biggest downside for me (you get used to the # of people quickly, and I'm from a small city and I hate people so...) However, professionally speaking? Forget about it. It's a horrible place for programmers. In the last couple months I've met with 2 entrepreneurs looking to move…

@latch is right on about the bank coders.

I was based in Asia for 12 years hiring web development and design teams. Six of my 12 years were in HK. Finding top talent is very challenging there. I tended to hire young and train, anything else never worked out.

HK is not a cheap city to live in. I realize that it can be done cheaply, but that loses its charm quickly. Like, goodbye farmers markets and even semi-affordable organic food.

Also, if anyone else is considering HK, keep in mind that the investment model is almost purely driven by connections.

Conversely, I knew several niche development companies that had set up shop in Thailand, outside of Bangkok, and had unbelievably low overhead and very talented developers. That was years ago, but it always struck me as a savvy model.

Anyone else looking at Asia should consider Singapore as well. They have some amazing investment programs run by the government at any given time.

Re: Why we are taking our startup to Hong Kong and other crazy stories of 2011

#52

Post by DevX101 »

mhartl wrote: post #36
dantheman wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Singapore is a dictatorship, and I think one should always consider the political and legal frameworks of a country in case one runs afoul of the law. I don't know about Singapore, but in some countries merely criticizing the government can get you into trouble, e.g. Thailand.

In this context, "dictatorship" is akin to an epithet, and using it risks short-circuiting rational discourse. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with personal rule: Napoleon wasn't Hitler, Queen Elizabeth I wasn't Stalin, and Marcus Aurelius wasn't Chairman Mao. Singapore is a de facto single-party state with a strong prime minister. Is that good or bad? That depends on whether we're talking Aurelius or Mao. Having…

Excellent comment. I'd also point that there are democracies in the world that are orders of magnitude worse places to start a business than Singapore.

Singapore is consistently rated by the World Bank/International Finance Corporation as the number 1 country in the world to do business[1]. That covers the ease of starting a business, contract enforceability, getting credit, and other metrics that are necessary precursors to getting started.

Although China's rise has been the largest in absolute economic terms, Singapore has probably been the fastest.

1. http://www.doingbusiness.org/data/exploreeconomies/singapore...

Re: Why we are taking our startup to Hong Kong and other crazy stories of 2011

#53

Post by latch »

samstave wrote: post #14
thomaspun wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great Fire Wall which blocks Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, Dropbox... However, I think China Government does welcome startups in Shanghai/Beijing with more goodies and support than Hong Kong's gov.

Now that HK went back to chinese rule years ago - how is HK not behind the same great FW?

Hong Kong and Macau are special administrative regions (SAR). For all intents and purposes, they are independent from China except for two key aspects: military and foreign affairs. They have their own courts, their own law, their own police, their own currency, their own visas, etc, etc, etc. It's known as "one country two systems".

The occupy wall street people in Hong Kong are actually camped INSIDE the HSBC HQ building (granted, it's a special open-ground-floor building). But the sense that you get from HK is one of more freedom than the west, not less.

Re: Why we are taking our startup to Hong Kong and other crazy stories of 2011

#55

Post by jacques_chester »

Jonbuford wrote: post #39
jacques_chester wrote: post #31

Personally I'd go to Singapore -- low personal taxes, no capital gains tax, no tax on income from dividends, low regulation, lots of capital, close to both Australia and Asia and it's a global flight hub.

Hong Kong is pretty much the same in those aspects, but larger population and more mountains. The government money for startups in Singapore has created an environment that is not entirely healthy or desirable in that there is little incentive to succeed or be that creative. Hong Kong has some government funding and space available, but tends to be in a matching funds arrangement.

I think you're right that Hong Kong is a comparable alternative; I've seen the two referred to as the Asian equivalents of New York and London in terms of their importance to Asian capital markets.

For myself, as an Australian, Singapore is more attractive because of its proximity.

Re: Why we are taking our startup to Hong Kong and other crazy stories of 2011

#56

Post by jacques_chester »

latch wrote: post #49
jacques_chester wrote: post #31

Personally I'd go to Singapore -- low personal taxes, no capital gains tax, no tax on income from dividends, low regulation, lots of capital, close to both Australia and Asia and it's a global flight hub.

You'll pay about 15-16% income tax in hong kong, there's no capital gains tax, no sales tax, no tax on dividends. Hong Kong is also a global flight hub...in fact, compared to the US, most places in Asia are relatively close to each other. If Singapore does have a tax advantage or a geographic advantage, it really can't be significant enough to be the reason you pick one versus the other.

Singapore is much closer to Australia. For me personally, that's a big advantage.

If however I were doing business in China, Korea or Japan, Hong Kong would be a better base.

Re: Why we are taking our startup to Hong Kong and other crazy stories of 2011

#57

Post by jacques_chester »

kloncks wrote: post #2

As an American, our immigration policies make me so damn mad. I know both Leo and Joel quite well, having went through AngelPad together, and they were building a solid company that should have stayed in America. The fact that wealth-builders, and innovative startup founders that seek to create new frontiers can't legally find a way of staying in this country is preposterous.

I regularly read the complaints about the rent in SV and think:

1. I pay that much rent. In a small city.

2. ... with limited programming work

3. ... with higher expenses

4. ... with lower wages

If I could simply move to SV to work, I would. But I can't.

Re: Why we are taking our startup to Hong Kong and other crazy stories of 2011

#58

Post by nirvana »

We also recently left the USA because one of our party is a UK citizen. We spent 6 months in the UK as US citizens with no problem, but when we came to the USA, we had to leave after 3 months, or send the UK resident co-founder out of the country at least. This visa thing is kinda absurd.

What is the visa situation like in Hong Kong? I've read elsewhere that getting a visa for China is very difficult (this might be an area where HH is different from CN). Are you able to get reasonably long visas so that you can stay there indefinitely, or will you have to relocate again in 6 months or a year?

FWIW, others have recommended Singapore, and one nice thing about Singapore is that they have a pro-entrepreneur Visa process, though it seems a bit focused on business that will be hiring singaporeans, so the traditional tiny consumer internet startup might have trouble meeting their requirements.

Singapore is an expensive place to live, housing wise (though I hear food is super cheap and super plentiful with a massive "Street food"/mall-food-court culture).... though I imagine HK real estate isn't cheap either.

The approach we're taking is that we're going places where our core costs are low-- apartment for the founders plus food, etc, and trying to make our funds last longer that way, and then working with people remotely to expand our staff.

Re: Why we are taking our startup to Hong Kong and other crazy stories of 2011

#60

Post by itsnotvalid »

latch wrote: post #37

I've been in Hong Kong for a year and a half. As a city, it's quite nice. Low taxes, extremely safe, vibrant culture. Pollution is really the biggest downside for me (you get used to the # of people quickly, and I'm from a small city and I hate people so...) However, professionally speaking? Forget about it. It's a horrible place for programmers. In the last couple months I've met with 2 entrepreneurs looking to move…

That is sad but true. Almost all my CS friends went to investment banks or private funds. I can only name a few that is willing to engage in startup-like activities. Fighting against the norm is hard here. (especially when the banks and funds pays pretty well)
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