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The incidence of myocarditis and pericarditis in unvaccinated Covid patients

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

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Re: The incidence of myocarditis and pericarditis in unvaccinated Covid patients

#51

Post by obsidience »

While I'm probably wasting my time here. I'm going to say what I think many aren't saying. We need to heavily study and reflect on the impact of vaccinations regardless of the outcome and IF "we made the right decision".

This means comparing outcomes between the vaccinated and unvaccinated.

While this study might be a step in the right direction, I feel there are too many in the medical, political and scientific spheres of influence that are shutting down such medical/scientific/humane study and debate. The silence is deafening.

If I don't hear such debate, my mind goes full tinfoil hat and thinks of concepts such as the Tenth Man Rule. It's good to have a civil discussion and disagreement on ANY subject. The data is out there. Where is that disagreement? Where are those studies? What were the impacts on heart conditions, strokes, neurological, SADS and other medical conditions?

The silence is truly deafening.

And to further increase my chances of getting censored - it's those same spheres of influence that likely created COVID in the first place and continue to allow institutions to dabble with genetic modification of these viruses. No one cares about the definition of "gain of function". We (humanity) dabbled with the code of life and messed up; we messed up big. Let's learn from this mistake and move on.

Re: The incidence of myocarditis and pericarditis in unvaccinated Covid patients

#52

Post by LennyHenrysNuts »

capnrefsmmat wrote: post #15

When reading this sentence: > We did not observe an increased incidence of neither pericarditis nor myocarditis in adult patients recovering from COVID-19 infection. you should be careful not to interpret this as evidence of absence. The previous sentence gives confidence intervals: > Post COVID-19 infection was not associated with either myocarditis (aHR 1.08; 95% CI 0.45 to 2.56) or pericarditis (aHR 0.53; 95% CI 0…

So would this study have been able to show a massive uptick in myocarditis/pericarditis (if it had occurred)? Or is it pretty much useless?

From my limited understanding, 2.56x next to none is still pretty close to next to none.

Re: The incidence of myocarditis and pericarditis in unvaccinated Covid patients

#53

Post by croes »

nradov wrote: post #37
heavyset_go wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Viruses can persist in tissues after infection even if they aren't circulating throughout the body. One weird example of this is when Ebola was going around. Some patients who survived it had antibodies that fought the infection to the point where it was undetectable, but the virus had retreated to the patients' eyes[1], where it continued to replicate in cells and cause eye disease[2]. Same thing can happen with EBV…

There is no reliable evidence that coronaviruses can remain dormant in the body of a recovered patient. They don't work like herpesviruses.

But there are clues that for some the virus stays for month after the infection

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/persistin...

Re: The incidence of myocarditis and pericarditis in unvaccinated Covid patients

#54

Post by coinbasetwwa »

mmastrac wrote: post #9

I think we'll discover that the post-vax myocarditis and pericarditis were caused by pre-existing, latent COVID infections. This probably means that there's a large number of people walking around with completely asymptomatic infections until the body attacks it either because of a vaccination or it finally stumbles across it and generates an immune response.

No post body was provided.

Re: The incidence of myocarditis and pericarditis in unvaccinated Covid patients

#55

Post by m463 »

mmastrac wrote: post #9

I think we'll discover that the post-vax myocarditis and pericarditis were caused by pre-existing, latent COVID infections. This probably means that there's a large number of people walking around with completely asymptomatic infections until the body attacks it either because of a vaccination or it finally stumbles across it and generates an immune response.

I can't help but think -- what if it is from people that work from home, don't exercise as much when they went to work, or are getting older post-covid

Re: The incidence of myocarditis and pericarditis in unvaccinated Covid patients

#56

Post by amluto »

capnrefsmmat wrote: post #15

When reading this sentence: > We did not observe an increased incidence of neither pericarditis nor myocarditis in adult patients recovering from COVID-19 infection. you should be careful not to interpret this as evidence of absence. The previous sentence gives confidence intervals: > Post COVID-19 infection was not associated with either myocarditis (aHR 1.08; 95% CI 0.45 to 2.56) or pericarditis (aHR 0.53; 95% CI 0…

I beg to differ. I think you and the paper are committing another falacy: getting hung up on relative instead of absolute hazards.

Myocarditis and pericarditis (at least the reportable kind studied in the paper) are rare — all groups had incidence well under 0.01%. That’s 10 per 100k for those who prefer those units. The study enrolled almost 200k COVID patients and over 500k controls. This is a lot of power to bound the absolute risk, but it is indeed underpowered to get good bounds on the hazard ratio.

The paper would be substantially improved if it said “the absolute risk of myo/pericarditis in COVID patients is So yes, a 2x increased risk would be consistent with the data, but an actual substantial risk would not be consistent with the data.

Re: The incidence of myocarditis and pericarditis in unvaccinated Covid patients

#57

Post by nradov »

stuntkite wrote: post #13
duncancarroll wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry. I got Omicron in January '22 despite being double vaxx'd, and I felt totally fine until 3-4 mo. later when I started to get recurrent dizzy spells, major fatigue, and bouts of anxiety, which are all very unusual for me. Checkup / bloodwork showed nothing. I am 41 y.o. who exercise regularly, does not smoke, rarely drinks, etc. So far I can still function and maintain a job, but it makes me wonder what's go…

My sister recommended Wim Hoff. I'll scope it out. I had been considering buying an o2 concentrator since 2020 and I do have some voice/breath training and have found some exercises related to that that aren't dissimilar from Wim Hoff show some reduction in symptoms. Honestly, I feel very lucky to be as functional as I am. I do worry about how medical and political systems are responding to COVID and long COVID, but…

There is no proven health benefit to using an oxygen concentrator for patients without lung disease (such as emphysema). The limiting factor in delivering oxygen to tissues is hemoglobin, not inhaled PPO2. Extended exposure to elevated PPO2 can cause oxidative damage to lungs and nerves, especially above about 0.5 bar, so you don't necessarily want to use it unless you need it.

Re: The incidence of myocarditis and pericarditis in unvaccinated Covid patients

#58

Post by clairity »

chiefalchemist wrote: post #48
clairity wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

right, i was going to make a similar kind of critique (but probably less lucidly). the effect sizes are tiny and the confidence intervals overwhelm the supposed conclusions. seems to be motivated reasoning rather than impartial science. covid may cause a rise in heart disease in unvaxed individuals relative to vaxed, but this study does nothing to support, and especially doesn't prove, that contention. one thing it d…

> Covid may cause a rise in heart disease in unvaxed individuals relative to vaxed, but this study does nothing to support, and especially doesn't prove, that contention. The issue that comes to mind for me is there no explanation given on why the unvaccinated were unvaccinated. From what I remember, the jab was not recommended for those with compromised immune system or other similar less-than-healthy conditions. Wi…

that could be a confounding factor, but it's hard to know for sure without really digging into their data and methods. they may have tried to correct for that. in any case, this study actually seems to suggest that while vaccination probably has a marginal benefit, the effect size is too small to really matter.

Re: The incidence of myocarditis and pericarditis in unvaccinated Covid patients

#59

Post by nradov »

mmastrac wrote: post #10
duncancarroll wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry. I got Omicron in January '22 despite being double vaxx'd, and I felt totally fine until 3-4 mo. later when I started to get recurrent dizzy spells, major fatigue, and bouts of anxiety, which are all very unusual for me. Checkup / bloodwork showed nothing. I am 41 y.o. who exercise regularly, does not smoke, rarely drinks, etc. So far I can still function and maintain a job, but it makes me wonder what's go…

Low dose aspirin worked for me, YMMV.

How do you know it worked?

Re: The incidence of myocarditis and pericarditis in unvaccinated Covid patients

#60

Post by nradov »

stuntkite wrote: post #36
anonAndOn wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry about your troubles. I agree with your hypothesis that COVID does more damage when given the right scaffold and that underlying conditions lay the groundwork for lasting damage. Have you considered your problems may be clot related?[0] [0] https://twitter.com/drclairetaylor/status/158936959572682342...

Not just considered, but seems likely. I have had a lot of trouble finding the key pair values with doctors to pursue any treatment down those lines. I also have ADHD and some other issues that make the diligent pursuit of treatment that is met without collaboration to be extremely difficult. I've found that the best way to NOT get treatment is to go into a doctors office with an idea of what might be wrong with me.…

DIY hyperbaric chambers can be extremely dangerous in terms of explosive decompression and fires. If you're considering building one then for the sake of yourself and your neighbors please don't try hacking one together out of plans your find online.
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