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What is it like to have a brain? Ways of looking at consciousness

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Re: What is it like to have a brain? Ways of looking at consciousness

#51
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument you're making is just eliding the "hard problem". We can trivially imagine an electronic circuit that registers different current levels when exposed to red or blue light. Nobody (that I'm aware of) suggests that there is an experience within the electronic circuit, despite the fact that it "senses" different frequencies in the electromagnetic spectrum. The circuit is qualia-free. You, on the other hand,…

The circuit you’re describing registers the external light impulses, but it doesn’t experience its own registering of those impulses. What I’m imagining is that the registering mechanism would itself have sensors placed on its wires that measure the currency levels on those wires, and have the measurements of those sensors as additional inputs into the cognition automaton. And then have sensors on the gates and wires…

No, this totally missing the point again.

It is not a question of what the sensor detects. It is a question of how it is possible for there to be an experience when sensing occurs.

Your introspection is simply pointing out the likely nature of what you experience, and I actually agree (tentatively) with the idea that most of our conscious experience is rooted in a self-reflecting system. But none of that has any bearing on how there can be ay experience at all.

Re: What is it like to have a brain? Ways of looking at consciousness

#52
post #30
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am glad, because for years the prevailing attitude was that there's nothing special or interesting about consciousness at all, that it doesn't really exist, it's an illusion, etc. I don't think we'll ever be able to fully explain it in scientific terms, because not everything is in the realm of scientific knowledge.

What scares me is that some leading AI researchers hold this view (that consciousness in general is nothing special) and it makes them come across as unempathetic, as if all conscious beings---meat or AI---are simply computers and in turn pain is just some kind of computation and therefore that it's silly to even discuss taking precautions to prevent any kind of AI suffering.

That’s because consciousness is not well-defined and might as well be woo. The verbiage around it is the same as a “soul”

Define it rigorously and show a physical basis and you might have something to work with.

Re: What is it like to have a brain? Ways of looking at consciousness

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument you're making is just eliding the "hard problem". We can trivially imagine an electronic circuit that registers different current levels when exposed to red or blue light. Nobody (that I'm aware of) suggests that there is an experience within the electronic circuit, despite the fact that it "senses" different frequencies in the electromagnetic spectrum. The circuit is qualia-free. You, on the other hand,…

> Nobody (that I'm aware of) suggests that there is an experience within the electronic circuit There is a theory, Integrated Information Theory (IIT) [0], which argues exactly that [1]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_information_theory [1]: https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.2307/25470707#_i2

I'm familiar with IIT. I don't believe it suggests that a photosensor has qualia.

Re: What is it like to have a brain? Ways of looking at consciousness

#54
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People fundamentally disagree about whether there is anything besides the “of”. My personal introspection tells mere there is only “of”, because what I perceive as my consciousness, is, by virtue of being a perception, in the end just an “of” itself. There is some sort of recursivity involved in the whole construct of consciousness, which makes it hard to get a grasp on. In some sense, consciousness is just that, bei…

The argument you're making is just eliding the "hard problem". We can trivially imagine an electronic circuit that registers different current levels when exposed to red or blue light. Nobody (that I'm aware of) suggests that there is an experience within the electronic circuit, despite the fact that it "senses" different frequencies in the electromagnetic spectrum. The circuit is qualia-free. You, on the other hand,…

This argument is not "eliding" the hard problem. This argument is saying that Chalmers' hard problem does not actually exist.

We have many explanations for what people describe as "the hard problem". But nobody who believes in "the hard problem" accepts these explanations, which have been given for decades by philosophers like Dennett.

There is no way to reconcile your view, that there IS a hard problem and that no progress has been made toward solving it, with our view, that there is no such problem, and that it does not need solving.

Re: What is it like to have a brain? Ways of looking at consciousness

#55
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The circuit you’re describing registers the external light impulses, but it doesn’t experience its own registering of those impulses. What I’m imagining is that the registering mechanism would itself have sensors placed on its wires that measure the currency levels on those wires, and have the measurements of those sensors as additional inputs into the cognition automaton. And then have sensors on the gates and wires…

No, this totally missing the point again. It is not a question of what the sensor detects. It is a question of how it is possible for there to be an experience when sensing occurs. Your introspection is simply pointing out the likely nature of what you experience, and I actually agree (tentatively) with the idea that most of our conscious experience is rooted in a self-reflecting system. But none of that has any bear…

What you call “experience” for me is just sensing of internal information processing, of internal representations. This may need some dedicated introspection to fully realize. You’re making a distinction which I believe is a mirage. It’s just a special attributation we make in our minds to those inner perceptions. If you look closely, it vanishes.

Think about it: How do you know that you have what you call an “experience”? It’s because you perceive the having of the experience. So, at some point, the perception of having an “experience” is something that enters as an input into your cognitive process, and you match it to some mental models you have about such inputs.

I adjusted my mental model to think of those “qualia” perceptions as being the sensing of parts of the internal workings of my brain. It’s a side-effect of all the processing that is going on, if you will, and of the likely fact that the sensing of some subset of the processing steps is being feed back as inputs into the cognitive processing.

Re: What is it like to have a brain? Ways of looking at consciousness

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody (that I'm aware of) suggests that there is an experience within the electronic circuit There is a theory, Integrated Information Theory (IIT) [0], which argues exactly that [1]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_information_theory [1]: https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.2307/25470707#_i2

I'm familiar with IIT. I don't believe it suggests that a photosensor has qualia.

Isn't the parent and related answers pointing towards the idea that there's a level of complexity above which you need to be to see those qualia? A single little circuit might not be the one that is conscious, but a bunch of them connected together might exhibit patterns that we could call experience?

Maybe the analogy is that a single DNA molecule is not a living thing but that molecule along with a bunch of others is?

Seems like the problem arises in pinning down what level of complexity is required.

Re: What is it like to have a brain? Ways of looking at consciousness

#57
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like Dennett's book "Consciousness Explained", the Aeon article falls into the category of explaining what we are conscious of , not how it is possible to be conscious of anything at all. It does not really tackle Chalmers "hard problem of consciousness", despite the subtitle.

I would be interested in your response to the following thought experiment: After years of heroic work and ingenious insights, along with a lot of technological progress, we "solve" the "easy" problem of consciousness in the following (I admit implausibly in any foreseeable future) strong sense: (Note: I'm going into quite a lot of detail because I think that when people say things like "understanding how the machine…

One thing that surprised me about ‘A Thousand Brains: A New Theory of Intelligence’ by Jeff Hawkins was how many different types of computer simulations currently exist for approximations and parts to your experiment’s steps.

Re: What is it like to have a brain? Ways of looking at consciousness

#58
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm a p-zombie then, because I just don't get it. I've spent hours upon hours thinking about thinking and observing my own thought processes and I don't see anything that couldn't be explained scientifically.

For starters: - Why is there something rather than nothing? - Does a universe with no one in it to observe it count as something or nothing? Then, imagine we're building an AI and want to know whether it's reached our level or not: - How can we determine whether the AI experiences qualia the same (or similar) way we do, and isn't lying? - Where to draw the line between conscious being and computer?

How do you know if the people to your left or right experience sensations the same way you do?

When they look at the sky does their mind paint the sky with the same color?

Re: What is it like to have a brain? Ways of looking at consciousness

#59
post #4

Aeon just had a great article on the consciousness, "Seeing and somethingness" https://aeon.co/essays/how-blindsight-answers-the-hard-probl... It argues that consciousness evolved out of sensation, where we developed an "inner self" to predict how sensations would affect us, and it's that inner self that became our conscious. Don't miss out on the comments section, the author answers a lot of question in there.

Like Dennett's book "Consciousness Explained", the Aeon article falls into the category of explaining what we are conscious of , not how it is possible to be conscious of anything at all. It does not really tackle Chalmers "hard problem of consciousness", despite the subtitle.

I am re-reading Dennett's book and this is the best take I have found on the mystery of consciousness.

Re: What is it like to have a brain? Ways of looking at consciousness

#60
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People fundamentally disagree about whether there is anything besides the “of”. My personal introspection tells mere there is only “of”, because what I perceive as my consciousness, is, by virtue of being a perception, in the end just an “of” itself. There is some sort of recursivity involved in the whole construct of consciousness, which makes it hard to get a grasp on. In some sense, consciousness is just that, bei…

The argument you're making is just eliding the "hard problem". We can trivially imagine an electronic circuit that registers different current levels when exposed to red or blue light. Nobody (that I'm aware of) suggests that there is an experience within the electronic circuit, despite the fact that it "senses" different frequencies in the electromagnetic spectrum. The circuit is qualia-free. You, on the other hand,…

> you have an experience.

What are "you"? And what is an "experience"? You highlight this like it's a magical phrase that cannot be explained, and your arguments suggest that you take it as a foundational assumption. But if you assume a fundamentally inexplicable nature to both personhood and experience, then you cannot possibly recognize any explanation for these, because doing so would require giving up your assumption.

I recently came across a paper arguing that consciousness as commonly referred to does not exist due to semantic issues around the term "consciousness," and your arguments reminded me of it. It's quite readable, if you're interested: "Consciousness Semanticism: A Precise Eliminativist Theory of Consciousness" by Jacy Reese Anthis. The abstract and main argument:

> Abstract. Many philosophers and scientists claim that there is a ‘hard problem of consciousness’, that qualia, phenomenology, or subjective experience cannot be fully understood with reductive methods of neuroscience and psychology, and that there is a fact of the matter as to ‘what it is like’ to be conscious and which entities are conscious. Eliminativism and related views such as illusionism argue against this. They claim that consciousness does not exist in the ways implied by everyday or scholarly language. However, this debate has largely consisted of each side jousting analogies and intuitions against the other. Both sides remain unconvinced. To break through this impasse, I present consciousness semanticism, a novel eliminativist theory that sidesteps analogy and intuition. Instead, it is based on a direct, formal argument drawing from the tension between the vague semantics in definitions of consciousness such as ‘what it is like’ to be an entity and the precise meaning implied by questions such as, ‘Is this entity conscious?’ I argue that semanticism naturally extends to erode realist notions of other philosophical concepts, such as morality and free will. Formal argumentation from precise semantics exposes these as pseudo-problems and eliminates their apparent mysteriousness and intractability.

> 3 The Semanticism Argument

> Now that terminology is established, the semanticism argument is brief and straightforward.

> 1. Consider the common definitions of the property of consciousness (e.g., ‘what it is like to be’ an entity) and the standard usage of the term (e.g., ‘Is this entity conscious?’).

> 2. Notice, on one hand, each common definition of ‘consciousness’ is imprecise.

> 3. Notice, on the other hand, standard usage of the term ‘consciousness’ implies precision.

> 4. Therefore, definitions and standard usage of consciousness are inconsistent.

> 5. Consider the definition of exist as proposed earlier: Existence of a property requires that, given all relevant knowledge and power, we could precisely categorize all entities in terms of whether and to what extent, if any, they possess that property.

> 6. Therefore, consciousness does not exist.

https://jacyanthis.com/Consciousness_Semanticism.pdf

I recommend reading it before objecting, as the author addresses a number of possible objections in section 4.

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