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Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

theatlantic.com

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Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#51

I read "Women Don't Ask" and "Ask For It" in the past couple of years. I proceeded to try to ask for things, like being named the tech lead, a promotion, or just more money. It did not help. In fact, I think it may have gotten me branded as bitchy for attempting to break out of the mold instead of "knowing my place". A lot of that was probably a function of where I was working, but this goes on at other places as wel…

I'm not in any way suggesting that what's going on here isn't exactly the problem diagnosed in the article. It's very real--I've seen it, probably benefited from it, and undoubtedly perpetrate it at some point as well.

I've actually followed through this process with several female colleagues and the conclusion I've come to is that in most cases, male or female, the only way you're going to get ahead is to have another option. It short circuits the "bitch" reaction if you're saying that you want to stay but this other great opportunity has come along. You generally don't want to ask for something unless you have a credible BATNA ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negotiate... )

It doesn't matter whether the boss you're negotiating with is male or female or is thinking you're a "bitch" or not--they're not going to give you much unless you have some sort of leverage. (The difference, of course, is that the man is less likely to face the same negative consequences for asking and being denied.) In many cases, even if your boss wants to give you something, he or she may not be able to do so without you having some sort of leverage.

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#52
post #6

I read "Women Don't Ask" and "Ask For It" in the past couple of years. I proceeded to try to ask for things, like being named the tech lead, a promotion, or just more money. It did not help. In fact, I think it may have gotten me branded as bitchy for attempting to break out of the mold instead of "knowing my place". A lot of that was probably a function of where I was working, but this goes on at other places as wel…

Even as a man negotiating can have preprocussions, I've had my access to sales data revoked (turns out the CEO doesn't like it when you put dev milestones next to sales increases), been accused of blackmail (turns out the CEO doesn't like it when they offer you a vacation and you ask for a raise), accused of lowering employee moral (thanks for turning down my request for a raise, I decided to become a team player and…

> In the words of Ray Liotta in Good Fellas: Fuck you, pay me!

I always ask new clients if they've seen Goodfellas.

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#53

To summarize the article: for some reason, the society is more willing to tolerate "pushiness" in males than in females. Why is that the case? Any ideas? (Other than "because it's always been like that..."). Not to bring down everything to sexuality, but a sexually pushy woman would be typically labeled a "slut." Which is why a woman will almost never ask a man out.

"""Not to bring down everything to sexuality, but a sexually pushy woman would be typically labeled a "slut." Which is why a woman will almost never ask a man out."""

Most people seem to prefer atavism when it comes to dating and bedroom activities. Those are some really deep patterns, and I doubt that they are solely the result of social conditioning.

A sexually pushy woman might be labelled a slut, but a sexually unpushy man will be labelled a beta male. Because, in the end, we are just chimps.

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#54
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is that the case? Any ideas? The situation gives men an enormous advantage. And the vast majority of the 90%+ of Fortune 500 CEOs and tech startups and VCs who are guys don't seem to have any interest in changing it. Why do you think that's the case?

That's a major consequence, but I doubt it's the true cause. I think many of us (even women) have ingrained the negative stereotype of a pushy "bitch." When we imagine a particular woman as such, we do not consciously think about perpetuating any particular power hierarchy; we simply think that she's a "bitch". I'm not saying it's right; just stating the (obvious) facts. My hypothesis is that the society unconsciousl…

Society is supposed to make sense now?

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#55
If you're a man you don't want to negotiate with a woman: generally, as long as it's just words, women tend to win.

Men are basically wired that way and it actually makes us happy to have a relationship with a "difficult" woman—and by that I mean a woman who knows what she wants and a woman you can't take for granted, not the passive-aggressive complaint-filer difficult that many women are! However, as it happens, that sort of tension also engages a sexual dimension and, along with losing negotiations, that is something we don't want at work. Men usually can't simply fend off sexual tension so culturing it at work would make our days unnecessarily difficult, especially in these times when you might get into trouble for even flirting.

I can easily imagine it makes sense for a man to not even begin to negotiate with a woman and instead shrug her off as a pushy, difficult person. But I disagree with that men would want women that stayed a mom. They do want such women if they have the balls, but they want her in to bed. They don't want them in the office because that makes things a lot easier.

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#56
If I am making a conscious decision to shut up every time a man and I start talking at the same time, then other women are engaging in even more extreme forms of self-censorship.

Ditto that. When I went to GIS school for two months, a two-thirds male field, in the last week I finally realized that most of the women sat in the last two rows at the back of class. A few women kind of floated around, sometimes in front, sometimes elsewhere. I was the only woman who consistently sat in the very front row. I was perceived of as extremely aggressive. I had not even noticed it until nearly the end of the program. I get into all kinds of hot water for thinking I'm just another person and behaving "just like anyone would (regardless of gender)" and having that interpreted as ultra aggressive. I strongly suspect that if I were male, much of my behavior would be interpreted as meek and mild-mannered.

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#57
post #48

Devil's advocate: could it have something to do with hardwired differences in the brain?

Why do you have to be a devils advocate? And why does it have to be some nebulous "brain difference".

Men and Women are different. Period. Trying to ignore it gets you nowhere.

Embrace the difference and work on letting everyone be themself to the fullest.

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#58
post #46

> When I'm in group interviews or meetings, frequently I will start talking at the same time as a man starts talking. Almost always, I shut up and let the man finish talking, and hope I'll get a chance to ask a question later. And you don't see cause-effect in any of this? If you do this repeatedly, and then suddenly start asserting yourself, yes, it'll have a significantly larger impact on how you're viewed than if…

Read the next sentence:

>>"They always preferred to work with a woman who stayed mum. But it made no difference to the men whether a guy had chosen to negotiate or not."

I'm all for searching scientific studies to see what the researchers missed, but reading 17 words ahead would probably have taken you less time than writing a snarky comment.

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#59
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't say I was able to really practice this stuff. Here's one thing which did happen, though: while describing a particular failure, I said " and dropped the ball on this one". One of the guys on my team really objected to that. He didn't like hearing it from me. I thought for a second and said, "hey, wait, you don't react like that when says the same thing". He just got really quiet and never really addressed the…

Outright accusing people of sexism absolutely will make them shut off to you. So will accusing them of puppy-kicking and any number of other things where they don't want to think of themselves as That Kind Of Person (even if they really do act that way sometimes) — but sexism is particularly volatile because there's an implicit threat of a lawsuit on top of the moral judgment. It's one of those things where, if someb…

Outright accusing people of sexism absolutely will make them shut off to you.

Yes. And respectfully and carefully playing to their ideals when they are uncomfortable with the reality your actions have just cast light on is a good way to move the bar, far more effective than such a personal attack. I don't know how it would apply in a work setting, but my ex husband had a big disconnect between his non-sexist ideals and the way he lived/assumptions he made. On more than one occasion, I played to his ideals and kept my mouth shut about his sometimes weeks-long grumpiness over the friction between his ideals and his unstated assumptions/expectations. This allowed me to gradually improve the latitude I had for pursuing my own goals in a situation where I was 100% financially dependent, with special needs kids in tow.

Humans are kind of like buggy software. There is often contradiction between what they believe and how they behave. That fact can be used as a force for good rather than just an accusation. You just have to put the emphasis on the part you want to grow rather than on the part you are offended by.

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#60
post #55

If you're a man you don't want to negotiate with a woman: generally, as long as it's just words, women tend to win. Men are basically wired that way and it actually makes us happy to have a relationship with a "difficult" woman—and by that I mean a woman who knows what she wants and a woman you can't take for granted, not the passive-aggressive complaint-filer difficult that many women are! However, as it happens, th…

They do want such women if they have the balls, but they want her in to bed.

Thank you for saying this. I feel like this is a huge problem for me personally: Men often seem to like it that I am headstrong but it doesn't seem to help me get anywhere in terms of "business" because the reaction seems to very frequently be "and, god, I totally want to sleep with you". Which means if they are decent men (especially in a relationship), they often seem to just not want to talk to me at all or if they want to talk to me (because they aren't in a relationship), they don't really want to talk about work/business in any meaningful way. It makes it very difficult to find a path forward with some things.

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