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Is Hans Niemann cheating? – Expert analyzes

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Re: Is Hans Niemann cheating? – Expert analyzes

#51

I honestly wish that people wouldn't put out rubbish analysis like this. >his conclusion is there is no reason whatsoever to suspect him of cheating. No. His conclusion is that based on this really weird brute force statistical analysis there is no statistical indicator that he cheated. Firstly, how you can state there's no reason whatsoever to suspect him of cheating is absurd. You know he has a previous record of c…

Yeah, the "1 in a million" hand-waving is weird. If I had a mechanism that allowed me to cheat at poker, I would only use it on a push. I certainly wouldn't be using every hand or even at all in penny ante games.

Re: Is Hans Niemann cheating? – Expert analyzes

#52

I honestly wish that people wouldn't put out rubbish analysis like this. >his conclusion is there is no reason whatsoever to suspect him of cheating. No. His conclusion is that based on this really weird brute force statistical analysis there is no statistical indicator that he cheated. Firstly, how you can state there's no reason whatsoever to suspect him of cheating is absurd. You know he has a previous record of c…

Regan's analysis is a good deal more detailed than that. He claims that if you check the computer just three times a game, he is going to catch you within three games. Now, if you check just once, it becomes a lot harder.

For the game against Carlsen, he looked at the key moves in that game. The first 20 or so moves were theory. You can't ever prove cheating in theory. After they diverged from theory, Regan said there were only two really key moves. For both of those, Niemann did not use the computers top choice. One of them he played a downright inaccurate move that could have cost him a tempo.

I don't know if Niemann cheated or did not, or even what exactly Carlsen suspects, but Regan's analysis seems to me to be strong enough that it counterbalances the known character deficiency of Niemann.

Re: Is Hans Niemann cheating? – Expert analyzes

#53
post #3

Fabiano Caruana (former number 2 and World Championship contender) is skeptical of Regan's analysis: > I would take Regan’s analysis with the large grain of salt, and the reason why is not because I have any insight into his algorithm or his methods, but because I know of a case of, a very high profile case, where with absolute certainty I can say that someone was cheating in an important event. And the person was in…

I believe Fabi, but the question must be asked: how does he know (with certainty!) that the player was cheating. Did the player confess? Was he blatantly looking on his phone in front of him?

Imagine I see someone after an event, flushing evidence of cheating.

I am completely certain, because I saw the evidence myself.

But to anyone else? There's no hard evidence - just he-said-she-said. Maybe I was mistaken - or trying to get my rival into trouble.

Knowing how it would look, maybe I keep my mouth shut rather than throwing around wild, baseless allegations about cheating.

Re: Is Hans Niemann cheating? – Expert analyzes

#54

If you play at a grandmaster level, then sometimes you only need to cheat on one or two critical moves in the game. The rest you can handle yourself. A smart and talented cheater wouldn't use stockfish for 10 to 20 moves in a 90 move game, you only use the game changing move or two. This is likely impossible to catch and prove.

Regan claims that if you consult the computer just three times during a game, he will catch you after three games. If you consult just once, it gets a lot harder.

Re: Is Hans Niemann cheating? – Expert analyzes

#55

Chess became a joke today. People decide if you cheat or not just based on your moves and results. It's nonsense. It's like deciding if an athlete is cheating or not without doping tests - solely based on the "distribution" of success. And Magnus behavior - hinting accusations again and again - is far from ethical too.

I think people decided he’s cheating because he admitted to cheating the two times he got caught cheating online, denied ever cheating besides those times, has had a meteoric rise in terms of moving from low GM to his current state, was unable to explain his play in a reasonable way, played almost perfectly, beat a substantially better player, and that player feels he cheated despite having never made accusations like that against people before.

I’m not saying it’s a slam dunk because it’s not. I can respect people who come down in either side based on the current evidence. But it seems like willful ignorance to suggest that none of the above has any bearing at all.

Re: Is Hans Niemann cheating? – Expert analyzes

#56
As a guy who tried writing my own chess engine, it's pretty trivial to modify a chess engine in such a way that looking for "chess engine like moves" won't work.

Take a high end engine, start messing with it's piece square tables. Modify or turn off the opening book and end game tablebases, and add slight changes to the evaluation function (e.g. slightly modify piece values.

Even doing just two of the things listed above is enough to destroy fingerprinting techniques.

Re: Is Hans Niemann cheating? – Expert analyzes

#57
post #37

You either have evidence or you don't. This quasi economic modeling of chess players is ridiculous. He says his models don't know anything about playing chess. OK, let's apply your models to all sorts of areas where we suspect fraudulent play. This chess drama is corrosive. Speculation from day 1 starting with carlsen.

The model described here seems. Like bunk. It set of alarm bells for me when they said it wasn't based on an understanding of chess.

But regarding whether it's possible to make such an argument, I'd refer you to the more compelling case the moderators of a Minecraft speedrunning forum made against the steamer Dream. https://youtu.be/-MYw9LcLCb4

The allegation is that the drop rates of key items were manipulated. It's a statistical argument, but it's founded in the mechanics of the game.

After offering counterarguments and denying it for months, Dream eventually admitted to it, though they claim it was an accident (in a manner which is plausible, though I personally doubt it).

Re: Is Hans Niemann cheating? – Expert analyzes

#58

I honestly wish that people wouldn't put out rubbish analysis like this. >his conclusion is there is no reason whatsoever to suspect him of cheating. No. His conclusion is that based on this really weird brute force statistical analysis there is no statistical indicator that he cheated. Firstly, how you can state there's no reason whatsoever to suspect him of cheating is absurd. You know he has a previous record of c…

I agree. The number one error made by people with statistical knowledge is to assume independence of events. Even very smart and very educated people tend to make this mistake rampantly. I hypothesize it is due to the education curriculum being very slanted in the direction of assuming independence everywhere because it makes the math easier, but I can't prove this. In the real world, true and full independence should be considered an exception rather than the norm.

Saying that Neimann is a very good chess player is basically a restatement of the fact that his previous records are likely clean. Nobody was accusing him of constant cheating before. (Cheating once is relatively easy. Cheating continuously, in multiple different environments, and leaving no trace, is hard.) The entire question at hand is essentially "Is Neimann's probability of cheating correlated with playing Magnus Carlson?" (and a family of similar questions can be asked) and no amount of analysis of his games not played against Magnus Carlson will answer that.

As for why the probability of cheating would be correlated with playing Magnus Carlson, again, no amount of consulting the statistics will be able to answer that question, but for anyone who is a human being with human foibles the answer is fairly obvious.

Someone used to double checking premises will observe that there's not much in this question statement specific to Neimann. The fact that he's cheated before does raise his particular probability, but you could ask this about anyone. And my reply to that would be, yes, that is indeed how things work, and is exactly why these high stakes games are played with more formality and more security than a pick-up game in a city park. Neimann's prior cheating does raise the question with a bit more urgency, but we generally assume a priori that anyone might be interested in cheating in a game with Magnus Carlson, and high level play in general, and act accordingly.

agarden in a sibling post suggests that the analysis itself goes deeper, which sounds more interesting. I am speaking only to what is in the linked article. It would be far from the first time a reported simplified a complex and nuanced argument into something useless, and I thought the point about independence is still worth posting.

Re: Is Hans Niemann cheating? – Expert analyzes

#59

I've heard of two ways one might cheat in chess. This analysis covers receiving engine moves, but does not address the other accusation, stealing opponents' prep work.

There is even a third, which would be pretty much undetectable. The engine only alerts him when he has to specially focus on the next move. That way he knows when to be careful, but he still needs to figure out what exactly to do on his own.

Exactly, if he has any form of binary signal to alert him when there simply *exists* a move that gives him advantage, that's all that is necessary to have an extreme edge.

Re: Is Hans Niemann cheating? – Expert analyzes

#60

I honestly wish that people wouldn't put out rubbish analysis like this. >his conclusion is there is no reason whatsoever to suspect him of cheating. No. His conclusion is that based on this really weird brute force statistical analysis there is no statistical indicator that he cheated. Firstly, how you can state there's no reason whatsoever to suspect him of cheating is absurd. You know he has a previous record of c…

>this really weird brute force statistical analysis

Care to explain why you call the method "really weird"? Is there a flaw in the statistics that you can correct?

Here's [1] his publications - all well cited, his h-index is good, and I find no refutation of complaints in the literature about his methods. He seems quite competent in this area.

>how you can state there's no reason whatsoever to suspect him of cheating is absurd

If cheating does not show up in performance then is it cheating? If there is any performance gain then it should show up at some statistical level.

[1] https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=8nk9k5oAAAAJ&hl=en...

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