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Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

reuters.com

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Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#51

Post by M2Ys4U »

NoboruWataya wrote: post #47
Xylakant wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if your constitution is incompatible with the treaties required to be member in the EU, you essentially have two options: change your constitution or not be member of the EU.

It's a bit more complicated than this, because the treaties don't really have any mechanism for unilaterally expelling a member state and there is no precedent for doing so. The reality is there is no easy answer to what happens when a national constitution is incompatible with EU law.

Member states can, in theory, be suspended, though we've seen when it comes to Hungary and Poland that mechanism is quite hard to use (as it requires unanimity of all of the other member states) and it's considered the "nuclear option".

Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#52

Post by jltsiren »

Longhanks wrote: post #49
jltsiren wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As the German politician Martin Scholz once said, if the EU were to apply for an EU membership, it would get declined because of a lack of a democratic foundation. That's the way it should be. In a democratic state, the state itself is sovereign, while the citizens are not. The rights of the citizens depend on the constitution, which can be changed according to a democratic process. The EU is a union of sovereign s…

Well, since I live in Switzerland, I am happy to disagree. Swiss people vote on many things multiple times per year and consider this a fundamental right and this the way it should be.

A sufficient majority of citizens can change the constitution and take that right away from you. Because you live in a democratic state, you do not have sovereign rights.

Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#53

Post by tut-urut-utut »

Semaphor wrote: post #3

Our data retention laws get overturned all the time. Usually already by our constitutional courts. Sadly our politicians don’t care much and don’t get punished, so they just try it again and again and again and usually it’s in effect for a while before the courts give judgement. I really can’t explain where Politikverdrossenheit (political apathy) comes from. edit: The last sentence is sarcasm

Don't worry. Today's newspapers reports that our fine ministerin is already looking to find and exploit loopholes in the judgement and will try to implement as much as possible [1].

It's a shame. We tend to criticize EU for a million valid reasons, but once in a while when they do something right, our government first reflex is to just ignore it.

[1] (German) https://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2022-09/vorratsdaten...

Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#54

Post by nonethewiser »

Is Germany a sovereign country if an international court presides over them?

This tends to get brushed aside by people defending the EU. Isn't this a step in the direction of the EU becoming something like the United States? There tends to be a lot of double-speak on this: "That's not true" and "it's a good thing" at the same time.

Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#55

Post by hok »

Semaphor wrote: post #3

Our data retention laws get overturned all the time. Usually already by our constitutional courts. Sadly our politicians don’t care much and don’t get punished, so they just try it again and again and again and usually it’s in effect for a while before the courts give judgement. I really can’t explain where Politikverdrossenheit (political apathy) comes from. edit: The last sentence is sarcasm

The fact that a court overturns a law is proof that our democracy actually works.

No need to be 'verdrossen'.

It would be worse if the courts just approves all laws the government conceives.

Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#56

Post by layer8 »

nonethewiser wrote: post #54

Is Germany a sovereign country if an international court presides over them? This tends to get brushed aside by people defending the EU. Isn't this a step in the direction of the EU becoming something like the United States? There tends to be a lot of double-speak on this: "That's not true" and "it's a good thing" at the same time.

Germany is free to leave the EU if they don’t want to follow the accords anymore. Its being subject to EU law is voluntary.

Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#57

Post by karatinversion »

nonethewiser wrote: post #54

Is Germany a sovereign country if an international court presides over them? This tends to get brushed aside by people defending the EU. Isn't this a step in the direction of the EU becoming something like the United States? There tends to be a lot of double-speak on this: "That's not true" and "it's a good thing" at the same time.

It is not. The whole point of the EU is to pool sovereignty for common benefit. Germany is constrained in things it can do: it cannot ban the importing of French wine, give huge subsidies to its domestic steel industry to gain market share in Europe, or stop Bulgarians entering the country.

Of course, there is no EU army enforcing EU law, so a sufficiently damn-the-consequences German government could do these things, at the cost of destroying the single market.

Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#58

Post by gpderetta »

numlock86 wrote: post #31

Is this from the same guys who want to get rid of cryptography for the public or at least get some backdoors?

The ECJ never 'wanted to get rid of cryptography' nor has the power to do so. It has the power to declare that such a law would violate EU treaties though.

Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#59

Post by em-bee »

Semaphor wrote: post #37
themitigating wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Political apathy comes from the political party that would most benefit from low turnout. If you are disappointed with politics that is a reason to vote. If you don't care, that's a valid reason not to vote

Been preaching that for years, but I can certainly see where "it doesn’t matter anyway" comes from.

but it doesn't matter. all parties pander to a majority to get votes. minority interests are ignored everywhere, and consequently none of the available parties have any redeeming qualities that make them a better choice than the others.

the whole system is broken. the parties waste most of their energy to fight each other instead of cooperating to actually solve problems. i want to throw out the whole lot and replace it with a system that is actually representative of the communities. is there any party anywhere that can achieve that?

Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#60

Post by whimsicalism »

themitigating wrote: post #13
Semaphor wrote: post #3

Our data retention laws get overturned all the time. Usually already by our constitutional courts. Sadly our politicians don’t care much and don’t get punished, so they just try it again and again and again and usually it’s in effect for a while before the courts give judgement. I really can’t explain where Politikverdrossenheit (political apathy) comes from. edit: The last sentence is sarcasm

Political apathy comes from the political party that would most benefit from low turnout. If you are disappointed with politics that is a reason to vote. If you don't care, that's a valid reason not to vote

Is there not a limit case?

Would you tell people in China, "if you are disappointed with politics, vote in your People's Congress elections?"

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