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Flashbots

blog.bitmex.com

51–60 of 67 posts

Re: Flashbots

#51

Semi-aside: the term “front running” is pretty overloaded and more than a little charged at this point. It gets applied to a whole spectrum of activities from the socially positive (racing to the inside with a post-only limit order to minimize the still positive price improvement) to the murky and probably kind of shady (MEV ecosystem) to outright fraud (an agency execution firm literally loading up before executing…

What you call socially positive others may call execution cost. Because you might improve on a pension fund limit order. So it's best to not get into this territory.

A non-aggressing order (I'll use post-only limit as an example, but as you probably know there are a zillion kinds of PoL and IOC and flags and stuff that meet this criteria) strictly makes the book deeper, or narrower, or both.

A pension fund (or rather the agency execution-type firm that they'd be crazy not to employ for block trades) wants deep books and narrow spreads: if they were in the business of collecting maker rebates then they'd be market makers, which would make them terrible pension fund managers.

If their agency execution firm is able to shave a bit of slippage/friction off by leaving some passive orders in the book I suppose they might have some luck with that, but there's no way that punishing retail traders with wider spreads on the off chance that an agency execution firm has to have a socially-approved client is a net win under any definition of socially positive. Execution cost for non-advanced actors is wide spreads, shallow insides, and high fees: strict market makers improve all of that.

People who make arguments like this one are usually day traders with no business using limit orders. I'm not saying that's what you are, but that's usually where you hear it: certainly to the extent that this argument has an intellectual pedigree other than that awful Lewis book, that's it.

Re: Flashbots

#52

This is a deeply misleading headline. Other people have explained it as well, but Flashbots is a relay for transmitting transactions to the Ethereum network in a way that preserves their privacy (and exposure to something called MEV[1]). It's purely optional and the vast majority of transactions[2] do not actually pass through this relay. MEV is an interesting area of research[3]. Unrelated aside: why is the quality…

> Unrelated aside: why is the quality of Hacker News posts and comments on crypto so bad? I experience extreme Gell-Mann amnesia[4] almost every post I read.

It's because the posters think they are smart. With every passing day that cryptocurrencies become adopted/accepted, their smartness becomes questionable, even to themselves. For them, it is easier to double down on the flawed arguments - well over 10 years now - than accept that while they are smart in some areas, they are not in all.

Re: Flashbots

#53

Whatever happened to the decentralization concept of every user being a node? Like not just computers but apps for phones too, so in order to use it you also have to share some resources in return. Is BitTorrent really the closest thing to decentralization?

The moment you have to stake 32 ETH to be a validator, it was already made highly inaccessible for most.

As soon as that node ends up running on AWS rather than a user’s typical laptop as suggested by Vitalik and his friends, then that was another decentralization failure there and there is no self-hosting at home.

Finally, when the merge was finalized, there where only two addresses that ended up holding more than 48% of Ethereum that is used for the PoS mechanism to work. Another centralization risk feared that happened in reality.

So, that looks to me like a failure of decentralization and a more centralized system that as expected; made worse with Proof of Stake.

Re: Flashbots

#54

Semi-aside: the term “front running” is pretty overloaded and more than a little charged at this point. It gets applied to a whole spectrum of activities from the socially positive (racing to the inside with a post-only limit order to minimize the still positive price improvement) to the murky and probably kind of shady (MEV ecosystem) to outright fraud (an agency execution firm literally loading up before executing…

Another semi-aside: The term "censor transactions" needs to be abandoned, because it accepts the whole "money is speech" nonsense at face value.

I'm willing to begrudgingly accept "money spent to effect speech is speech" but no further. The vast majority of crypto transactions do not fall within that narrow bucket, and using the word "censor" to refer to reversing them with a 51% attack is propaganda.

Re: Flashbots

#55
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have another question. Why would a centralized relay (flashbots) NOT take advantage of all the orders it processes? As far as I can tell, the MEV has just moved from the miners to the flashbot(s?).

The article says it's altruistic.

Not quite. It says this "may be altruistic". "May" does a lot of heavy lifting there.

From an outsider's perspective, a more likely explanation is that the funding is a subsidy. The VC having a stake in this space would have invested in a lot of other companies too. If their funding for Flashbots is notably less than the aggregate expected value of their total investment in the ecosystem at large, and if without Flashbots that expected value would drop by more than the funding amount, then the subsidy would be a net positive investment for that VC.

In other words, they may have seen Flashbots as an ongoing cost of doing business.

And if they had indeed achieved staying centralisation, there's always the access fee structure to hike up.

Re: Flashbots

#56

Semi-aside: the term “front running” is pretty overloaded and more than a little charged at this point. It gets applied to a whole spectrum of activities from the socially positive (racing to the inside with a post-only limit order to minimize the still positive price improvement) to the murky and probably kind of shady (MEV ecosystem) to outright fraud (an agency execution firm literally loading up before executing…

It just means detecting a transaction before it happens and executing it earlier for monetary benefit.

Re: Flashbots

#57
post #11

> In Ethereum, as of May 2022, it is believed that over 90% of miners are connected to the Flashbots server. One can determine this by observing that over 90% of blocks contain Flashbot transaction bundles. > The Flashbots system is integrated into the current Proof of Work (PoW) mining system on Ethereum. When the Merge happens and PoW mining is switched off, Flashbots adoption will reset to zero again. This article…

> We go on to look at ETH 2.0 and explain why Flashbots or a similar system needs to be constructed again from scratch. I read it as what was and now what is needed

Mev-boost, a piece of software that consensus clients delegate their block building to, is currently being used on mainnet. The difference is that there can be multiple block builder _relays_, such as Flashbots, bloXroute, Manifold Finance, and Blocknative.

These relays effectively accept bundles from MEV searchers, which are then sent to the validator running mev-boost as they propose their block.

https://boost.flashbots.net/

Re: Flashbots

#59
Somewhat counterintuitively, PoW is inherently centralized. Its properties that make it viable at all also make it easy to become controlled by small number of big actors. This is hardly specific to Ethereum.

Re: Flashbots

#60

Semi-aside: the term “front running” is pretty overloaded and more than a little charged at this point. It gets applied to a whole spectrum of activities from the socially positive (racing to the inside with a post-only limit order to minimize the still positive price improvement) to the murky and probably kind of shady (MEV ecosystem) to outright fraud (an agency execution firm literally loading up before executing…

It just means detecting a transaction before it happens and executing it earlier for monetary benefit.

In a PoW cryptocurrency blockchain context, maybe? Though I think the much more precise term MEV captures that nicely.

The etymology of the term "front-running" goes at least as far back as the name "Reuters" and the use of pigeons to be the microwave towers of the day: https://www.reuters.com/article/rpb-historyofspeed/the-long-..., and probably a great deal further. I imagine the actual origin of the term is lost in deep antiquity due to the fact that someone with tradable information in hand would profit more by "running" than by walking.

I don't personally deal for profit in mempool analysis, but I'm the "low-latency guy" to enough people that do that I've had to learn the mechanics of a few of the big chains, which is frankly time that I'll never get back, and while the Nash equilibria are far less stable/obvious in this world than in a good old fashioned price-time precedence order-book, it looks pretty fucking shady to me.

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