I feel really sorry for the young woman mentioned in the article having to take what was for her an unnecessary class. As a non-academic, my casual four years to get a BS was probably really good for me.
The case for ending calculus requirements for science majors
51–60 of 142 posts
Re: The case for ending calculus requirements for science majors
#52I think my experience suggests that even outdoor types who are drawn to field work should learn calculus in some functional way if they want to do science. I did an undergrad in environmental sciences and biology, but understanding the role of modeling in theory and practice is key to those fields and makes heavy use of calculus. I went on to get a PhD in ecology, but I used calculus explicitly and implicitly routinely. There is great satisfaction in writing out ideas and hypotheses about the world and then translating them into math and then code so that you can play with those ideas. Sometimes that just requires algebra, but it usually pulls in calc.
The other risk is that by not learning broadly about the fields that are foundational to conducting science you simply limit your options. Maybe that field tech job loses its luster after a while and you start to want to understand how plate tectonics affected how the dirt got this way. Need calc. Personally, I switched to industry and do a combination of data science and engineering and calculus continues to be useful to me in practice and as a way of reasoning about the world.
On the flip side, you can always learn it later when it does become explicitly needed. But again I think the problem is teaching geologists and biologists to do epsilon-deltas but not showing them how to specify and simulate a model based on rates of change of growth or propagation of waves or whatever. A lot of coursework is not thoughtfully conceived or delivered and the concept of weeder courses is super lame. But thats not the fault of calculus.
+1 for requiring statistics too but virtually all of the above applies there too.
Re: The case for ending calculus requirements for science majors
#53Re: The case for ending calculus requirements for science majors
#54Very much yes. I am currently trying to tutor my daughter through college-level calculus. She wants to be a civil engineer. Civil engineers, obviously, need to know calculus. But calculus is not being taught to her by engineers. It is being taught by mathematicians. And as part of teaching it, they are attempting to instill a "mathematical mindset". Which means, in practice, that it is an entry to proofs. Every proof…
My college used calc 1/2 as “weed out” classes. The best part was the professors were married, the same calc book was used for calc 1/2/3, and they revved the book every semester, basically rearranging the problem sets so you had to buy a ~200 book for 3 semesters, or make friends with someone who would let you photocopy the problem sets. My entire faith in academia was broken as a result.
Re: The case for ending calculus requirements for science majors
#55Very much yes. I am currently trying to tutor my daughter through college-level calculus. She wants to be a civil engineer. Civil engineers, obviously, need to know calculus. But calculus is not being taught to her by engineers. It is being taught by mathematicians. And as part of teaching it, they are attempting to instill a "mathematical mindset". Which means, in practice, that it is an entry to proofs. Every proof…
In principle, I agree that calculus doesn't need to be mandatory. However this apparently respectable counterargument is misframing the situation. A bit like me saying that a given soldier never placed top 3 in a race, or indeed had to run anywhere in a combat situation, and therefore efforts at army fitness training were useless.
Everyone knows that nearly no engineers use calculus in their day job. Therefore, the purpose and measure of success isn't whether an engineer uses calculus in their day job. It is a great signal of technical problem solving ability, it is really powerful having a large pool of people who are trained in working with rates, areas and margins.
Plus, don't underestimate the impact of forcing people to acknowledge that there is exactly one right answer and that it can be proven. There are people out there who genuinely believe that everything is up for negotiation to a limit that just can't fly in a math course and something needs to screen them out before they get anywhere near anything involving high pressures. People who don't have engineers for parents need to be inducted into the culture from a couple of angles.
Re: The case for ending calculus requirements for science majors
#56Earlier quoted context omitted.
If we take this to the extreme, should they have to study real analysis so they understand where calculus comes from as well, or would you prefer we start at set theory? Maybe we should delve into philosophy to understand the basis of mathematics so we can truly understand our statistics. The point is that you have to pick a cut-off somewhere as your foundation to build upon. I doubt much understanding of calculus is…
You don't need to understand where is calculus come from to tqke real analysis. Hell most academics who use calculus everyday did not study real analysis and they are fine. This extreme angle is not relevant. The difference is that you can't fot example understand physics without calculus but you can understand and study calculus without real analysis.
And it's probably, the most useful course I've taken. If you're going to perform a bunch of floating point ops, I hope you've taken real analysis. They're enough of a Russian roulette to begin with, let's make sure you aren't making my day worse hunting down for some weird ass rounding error.
Re: The case for ending calculus requirements for science majors
#57Very much yes. I am currently trying to tutor my daughter through college-level calculus. She wants to be a civil engineer. Civil engineers, obviously, need to know calculus. But calculus is not being taught to her by engineers. It is being taught by mathematicians. And as part of teaching it, they are attempting to instill a "mathematical mindset". Which means, in practice, that it is an entry to proofs. Every proof…
> In twenty years of engineering practice I have never once had to take a difficult limit, and can probably count on one hand the number of times I've had to take a limit of any kind. In principle, I agree that calculus doesn't need to be mandatory. However this apparently respectable counterargument is misframing the situation. A bit like me saying that a given soldier never placed top 3 in a race, or indeed had to…
There's plenty of classes in a civil engineering degree to instill that particular lesson. Why does it have to be calculus? It's just legacy - it used to be that limits and integrals could only be computed by hand, so any aspiring engineer would have to practice that skill a lot. Now computers can do the tricky algebra on their own (and I'm not even mentioning numerical approaches, which are more broadly useful but can be very tricky in their own way), yet the calculus courses have barely changed.
Re: The case for ending calculus requirements for science majors
#58Remind me why there are no downvotes on articles again?
There's a "flag" option if you think it doesn't belong here. There's also a "hide" option if you just don't want to see it. These aren't hard to find, they're both available under the submission title.
Re: The case for ending calculus requirements for science majors
#59Earlier quoted context omitted.
You don't need to understand where is calculus come from to tqke real analysis. Hell most academics who use calculus everyday did not study real analysis and they are fine. This extreme angle is not relevant. The difference is that you can't fot example understand physics without calculus but you can understand and study calculus without real analysis.
I've a bachelor's in CS, and I've learned real analysis. As someone pointed out, maybe being in an European university led to it. And it's probably, the most useful course I've taken. If you're going to perform a bunch of floating point ops, I hope you've taken real analysis. They're enough of a Russian roulette to begin with, let's make sure you aren't making my day worse hunting down for some weird ass rounding err…
Re: The case for ending calculus requirements for science majors
#60Earlier quoted context omitted.
> In twenty years of engineering practice I have never once had to take a difficult limit, and can probably count on one hand the number of times I've had to take a limit of any kind. In principle, I agree that calculus doesn't need to be mandatory. However this apparently respectable counterargument is misframing the situation. A bit like me saying that a given soldier never placed top 3 in a race, or indeed had to…
> Plus, don't underestimate the impact of forcing people to acknowledge that there is exactly one right answer and that it can be proven. There's plenty of classes in a civil engineering degree to instill that particular lesson. Why does it have to be calculus? It's just legacy - it used to be that limits and integrals could only be computed by hand, so any aspiring engineer would have to practice that skill a lot. N…
It doesn't, but it has to be something. So the proposal isn't 'get rid of calculus' as much as 'replace it with X which will be better at achieving the outcomes we think are important'. Like the original article did with statistics, which is a decent proposal.
That being said if my civil engineer hadn't ever studied calculus I, personally, would prefer to find a different civil engineer. It makes sense to give the will-it-stay-up? job to someone unusually well educated and if they haven't studied those sort of mathematical basics it is pretty suspicious.