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How sustainable are fake meats?

knowablemagazine.org

51–60 of 121 posts

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#51

If you know much about agriculture, this question has an almost certain answer. The contrast of energy and resource expense between plants and animals is staggering, even if you’re comparing a less demanding animal like chicken. You can refrigerate, process, and ship many plants by sea, truck, and plane and they won’t catch up to animal foods. We’re also not seeing a clear economic picture in Canada and the USA becau…

> We’re also not seeing a clear economic picture in Canada and the USA because subsidies/tax breaks/etc can significantly transform the final costs of something like milk or beef in a grocery store. Thanks, this was the question I came to ask about the why is my fake meat more expensive than ground beef at the grocery store.

A big part of the price is just that fake meat is currently a duopoloy of luxury brands. When Tyson has a full rollout of their fake meat products you'll see the prices go down.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is so frustrating how much well-entrenched subsidies and tax breaks have distorted our (consumer's) notion of what is "regular" vs "expensive".

Frustrating, no. Half the people in the US couldn't afford food if the costs weren't low. Paying subsidies is a way to keep labor costs low while keeping people fed.

Most people have long since forgotten about all the ways the American food system has been engineered over the years. In a way that's a success because things like famine are unthinkable to the average American. It's something that happens in "some other country."

It's part of the disconnect that industrialization and urbanization has brought. People don't really understand agriculture or agriculture policy anymore.

Things like adding iodine to salt; iron, thiamin, and niacin to bread; extra vitamin D to milk. Federal stockpiles of various types of food from grain to cheese. All done to improve the general health and wellbeing, and as a measure of insurance in the event of war or disaster.

The only thing most people on the internet seem to know about today is the old politician's cry of "We're paying farmers not to grow food!" Yeah, well, there's a reason for that. When the farmers go out of business, you have no food.

It's not ideal. It's not perfect. But it's worked, and has kept America fat and happy for almost a century. Try to understand more than what's right in front of you.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#53

My wife is pescatarian, which has really lowered my consumption of meat. There is such a weird contrast between meat marketing and the actual use. With my reduced consumption, I am still sometimes pulled in by marketing: the masterfully grilled steak; the shawarma roasting on a spit; the artisanal burger with a delicate balance of ground beef, fat, sausage, and maybe one or two secret ingredients... ...but this expec…

> modest goals (replacing the chicken nugget, replacing the pepperoni)

Quorn have made 'Crispy Nuggets'[1] from funghi for decades. They're a great replacement for chicken nuggets and I feel like if someone ate them without realising they wouldn't question what they're eating.

1: https://www.quorn.co.uk/products/chicken-style-nuggets

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#54
post #2

From the article: " even poorly produced plant-based meats are better, environmentally, than meat from well-raised livestock. "

Strong disagree. There's a shit-ton of money riding on that being an answer as companies like Nestle are looking to create vertically integrated markets for nutrition. These huge conglomerates created the sickness of feedlots, etc to kill the labor unions, and are now peddling the cure for the problems they created to you - eat shittier fake products with most of the downsides of the original process. It would make m…

Even small scale production far outstrips the carbon footprint of a plant-based diet. There's no reason to fully substitute "meat" with Impossible products. Those products are designed for meat-eaters to help them transition to plant-based diets.

Once you get used to a plant-based diet the idea of "simulated meat" is absurd and not desire-able.

It's not for everyone; there are people whose cultures or physical needs prevent them from adopting such a diet and far be it from me or anyone else to dictate their diets for them.

However there remains the fact that beef production is unsustainable. Nearly 80% of our plant-based production goes to livestock feed. That's land that could be used to feed humans. And we'd use less land to do so. Instead the US and Canada have been increasing investments in the beef industry which is going to places like Brazil where they continue to slash and burn Amazon rain-forest in order to keep up the increasing demand for livestock feed.

The problem is a demand-side issue. Subsidized access to beef products has led to consumer perception that beef products are an affordable and accessible luxury. If we could even figure out what "sustainable beef" looks like it would be incredibly expensive and hardly available to anyone. The beef industry doesn't want that: it needs grocery and restaurant chains and ever-increasing consumer markets for its products to continue to grow its profits.

Which means continued deforestation, CO2 emissions, and lower sequestration rates.

I think subsidies should be removed and investment in plant-based alternatives continue in order to lower demand without price-shocks and panic. Once people realize how freaking expensive their dietary choices really are we might see the scales tip back. But we won't see that happen if governments and banks continue to artificially prop up low prices.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#55
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why this is surprising. Option A: grow plants, eat plants. Option B: grow plants, breed animals, feed plants to animals, give animal antibiotics to survive breeding pens, give animal hormones to grow faster, slaughter animal, eat animal.

Of course, it started out as: a) grow plants that humans can eat on soil that will grow them, eat plants. b) grow plants that humans can't eat, but livestock can, on shit soil that won't support plants that human can eaa, eat the animal. and in countries that look at the US and go "wow that's fucking barbaric" at their treatment of livestock is generally still the case.

I work with clients in a multi-billion dollar industry (they themselves are in the hundreds of millions in revenue) who sell by-products of food production for cattle feed. In this situation, the food is being grown for humans anyways and only the waste product is used. It doesn't really fit your black & white view of the situation.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is so frustrating how much well-entrenched subsidies and tax breaks have distorted our (consumer's) notion of what is "regular" vs "expensive".

Frustrating, no. Half the people in the US couldn't afford food if the costs weren't low. Paying subsidies is a way to keep labor costs low while keeping people fed.

A good parallel is the rising costa of electricity in the UK - should small businesses fail and citizens go cold because of geopolitical issues & wars outside their control causing price spikes? Or should the government help smooth things out. The latter seems ideal while the longer term problems are worked out.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#58
post #40
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, sometimes I want a burger and fries. Cottage cheese/yogurt burger doesn't sound so great to me.

Yeah so eat a burger and fries when it feels right :) No need to go full vegetarian. No need to eat cows every day. Balance

But if the substitutes are good enough (some of them are now, imo), that seems like the best of both worlds.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#59
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the substitutes seem unnecessarily unhealthy As a meat eater, this has been my philosophy. If you’re gonna go vegetarian, just go for it. Vegeterian food is delicious and there’s so much choice! Entire cultures of amazing natively vegetarian foods with no need for weird meat substitutes. Personally, legumes don’t have the right macros. Neither do fake meats. Cottage cheese and greek yogurt make better meat substitu…

> As a meat eater, this has been my philosophy. If you’re gonna go vegetarian, just go for it. I never understood this meme. What exactly is the philosophy? A philosophy of how others should partake in a lifestyle that you don’t? It's odd enough to tell others what to prefer, but it's not clear what the impact of "As a meat eater" is supposed to have. "As a straight man, my philosophy is if you're gonna be gay, just…

A philosophy of how others should partake in a lifestyle that you don’t?

Sounds like how the vegan people at work would comment on other people's lunches.

Re: How sustainable are fake meats?

#60
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point was that growing meat is an extra multiple steps on top of everything you just mentioned

Not necessarily. "Environmental" problems are always scope to whatever issue the stakeholder is worried about. Soy and wheat production in the United States is concentrated on the Great Plains, and made possible by irrigation sourced from groundwater and artificial fertilizer. Problem: that groundwater is being depleted faster than replenishment, and part of the plains will be desert-like within the lifetime of many…

Rotating crops is a solution to the depletion. The main reason that soy and corn are grown so heavily is subsidy
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