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The WFH Folks

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51–60 of 101 posts

Re: The WFH Folks

#51
I feel extremely attached to the people I work with and the company I work for, but we are full remote.

So as a point, no, we were all very looking forward our first onsite with many hugs (onsite was blocked due to covid)

Re: The WFH Folks

#52
Personally I grew up with my friends in multiple continents, and messenger apps like MSN etc kept us connected.

Every job I’ve had has similarly been a mix of locations with teams over multiple sites.

Working from home during the pandemic has been a natural extension of that.

You can build deep and meaningful connections with people online. You just need to approach it differently.

Look at entire gaming communities that do so despite never meeting.

Working apart from each other also doesn’t mean you can’t meet up outside work unless you truly live far apart. You can still socialize, but this time on your own terms instead of during work.

Anyway personally I haven’t felt a deterioration in connections. In fact I talk more often to my colleagues, and more importantly, to a wider range of colleagues than before.

I do however think different people have different aptitudes for online socialization. I do notice some people who were not terribly social at work, suddenly stop talking to anyone they don’t work with directly. And many people have issues not having face to face communication for context clues.

However I think this is totally subjective to the individuals, and having worked at multiple multi site companies, I think remote work can be much better for wide team building.

You can do away with the smaller cliques to some degree, disseminate information in easier to find locations and reduce tribal knowledge. People in other locations can be seen as equals to the ones local.

In fact when I worked in the office and supervised teams across multiple locations, I’d treat everyone on the team as remote when it came to most communication. Team chat rooms were encouraged instead of people coming by my desk unless needed. What I saw was that more people were aware of everything going on and were able to do better work as a result. I also found people who were too shy to ask questions were suddenly more able to ask them and have them answered because they saw the more confident individuals also asking things in the open chats rather than in person.

There are definite downsides to it all, but I find it really scales better in the long term

Re: The WFH Folks

#53

I’m an eng manager at a public company. Short answer - relationships cannot be made via zoom. Thus, interactions are transaction based. I can provide a million examples of why this is a fact in as simple as online dating where you always want to end up meeting the person and digital correspondence is not sufficient to cross the boundary of trust between 2 humans. …and trust is the one thing that gets you promoted, ge…

As an eng mgr of a fully remote team, I do not agree with your assertion that "relationships cannot be made via zoom." Of the sixteen people I work closely with, I have met fewer than half in person, including a similar fraction of the engineers reporting to me. I seek to balance the lack of in-person interactions by leaning heavily into interest, compassion, and vulnerability. I take time in my 1:1s to ask about fol…

Managers like ourselves make the mistake thinking our close relationships with our folks means the relationship between our folks and others are equally close. That is because as managers people publish their info to us and are incentivized to do so where as two peers are not. And in large orgs, how do you gain visibility as an IC or build good professional connections or connect multiple young engineers together, the introvert to other introverts? To replace in office collisions at lunch or at the vending machine is equivalent to finding and randomly zooming folks in chat groups which is hard since calendars are hard to get on. Lots of friction.

But I speak of large orgs here, not 100 person startup where some of these things can be more easily managed… but still I know these companies do a lot of offsites to make up for the lack of connection in office.

Re: The WFH Folks

#54

I’m an eng manager at a public company. Short answer - relationships cannot be made via zoom. Thus, interactions are transaction based. I can provide a million examples of why this is a fact in as simple as online dating where you always want to end up meeting the person and digital correspondence is not sufficient to cross the boundary of trust between 2 humans. …and trust is the one thing that gets you promoted, ge…

I've worked for fully remote companies and fully in office companies and large companies and tiny ones. I've been an IC mostly but also a manger and lead. My observation is: it doesn't make a damn bit of difference. Decisions are made, people do the work. There has been no noticeable quality difference except in the case of large+office where the strong social element combined with the faceless corp equalled a lot more pissing about having fun rather than working.

The real insight a lot of people have had is that they can work just fine with their remote colleagues without a manger needing to watch them. I'm sure most managers such as yourself aren't like that, but it only takes one in an org to really make people unhappy.

Re: The WFH Folks

#55

I’m an eng manager at a public company. Short answer - relationships cannot be made via zoom. Thus, interactions are transaction based. I can provide a million examples of why this is a fact in as simple as online dating where you always want to end up meeting the person and digital correspondence is not sufficient to cross the boundary of trust between 2 humans. …and trust is the one thing that gets you promoted, ge…

Can't you just haul in the managers then? I don't need or desire anyone's trust. My code gets reviewed, so there is no real need to trust me. Bring in the decision makers and leave the minions like me who just silently spin in chairs during meetings at home.

Hah yeah, I can relate when I was IC.

If you have enough leverage to know you don’t need relationships to be safe, to get promoted, to do what you want to do, more power to ya!

I speak of large orgs where not all people and teams can be like that. And unfortunately, large orgs cannot say “team a you stay wfh team b you come in since you need to gel with team c in office” due to fairness. So a one size fits all will be applied like Apple is doing.

Re: The WFH Folks

#56
In-person can make the bonding and camaraderie a lot easier for many people -- some, more than others.

That said, for the last 40+ years, people have also been building relationships online, much stronger than usual office ones. And, for much of that period, it was without even the benefit of videoconferencing. Some of my closest friends are from various open source communities, for example, and I've only ever met about half of them in-person.

I think many companies haven't yet figured out how to provide fertile soil for distributed teams to bond. And I've heard of cases where employees try to do it organically, but their style is cramped by the company (e.g., mandated corporate communications tools that aren't amenable to this, keyloggers as part of "endpoint security" having people feel under surveillance, suspicions that video calls are recorded, culture and metrics/demands that don't permit genuine casual interaction time).

Another speedbump sometimes might be for people who've grown up with their in-person charisma/presence a part of how they interact, and haven't yet fully adapted to other modalities. Nobody is tall on webcam, but a lot of other human qualities are still important, and can be expressed and perceived.

Re: The WFH Folks

#57
post #54

I’m an eng manager at a public company. Short answer - relationships cannot be made via zoom. Thus, interactions are transaction based. I can provide a million examples of why this is a fact in as simple as online dating where you always want to end up meeting the person and digital correspondence is not sufficient to cross the boundary of trust between 2 humans. …and trust is the one thing that gets you promoted, ge…

I've worked for fully remote companies and fully in office companies and large companies and tiny ones. I've been an IC mostly but also a manger and lead. My observation is: it doesn't make a damn bit of difference. Decisions are made, people do the work. There has been no noticeable quality difference except in the case of large+office where the strong social element combined with the faceless corp equalled a lot mo…

True of bad managers. And in large orgs they are not isolated, usually a group under a bad director or vp of a division.

And totally agree on the work being visibly the exact same output if not more in my case.

But one example I can give is how for certain folks who want to build a professional career or want to grow, they need to know who in what group they can connect with. And in office it looks like you sometimes seeing a person many gravitate towards and ask about them and find out they are a somebody. In slack there are no similar strong signals and you have to browse many channels and who knows if they would accept your zoom invite to connect. And in most orgs, driving this kind of connection building is nearly impossible remote - asking an introvert to go be social is hard enough in person let alone ask them to browse slack channels.

And as a byproduct most people stagnate, feel alone. How do you try and make friends? How do you try to find people like you? Productivity is there but feeling of any other benefit from work is gone and lets be honest, not all software work is meaningful and clearly adds to the bottom line. Adding unit tests to a codebase is a lot more tolerable when you have people you chit chat with on your breaks or go to lunch with. Again.. big corp type work situations. But I know it is also true of non high growth startups or medium sized companies as well. The KtLo work (keep the lights on) is needed but not super invigorating.

Re: The WFH Folks

#58

The loss of cognitive overhead of dealing with a physical workspace with distractions abound has to be countered with a new cognitive overhead – putting initiative forward in reaching out to coworkers, setting up regular 1:1s to just chat. While the conversations may initially feel forced (because they are indeed artificial), once camaraderie is built, it feels as natural as an office chat.

Video calls are miserable already, and there are way too many hours of them just to get through necessary work business. Video calls to just chat are a special hell.

Re: The WFH Folks

#59
post #4

Honestly I don't have any issues with this. Most of my team is in Europe and I'm in America so even before COVID and WFH became the norm, I was still talking to people via Slack, Teams, etc. I think the best advice I can give is to reach out to people and have normal conversations when you don't need anything. If you only talk to people when you need something from them, they are going to be less likely to talk about…

Exactly. I actually call up people when there is downtime and shoot the breeze. We talk about ideas, office politics, anything under the sun. So even though we are all WFHing I was able to bond with my new team this way.

Re: The WFH Folks

#60

I agree. I have worked on compensating by engaging more in other social settings like the gym and church.

Feel you 100. When I was a startup founder, I tried holing myself in my apt for a week thinking I would be productive. By day 3 I noticed I was not as sharp and mentally wandering. So I went to get a coffee and the exchange with the cashier boosted my endorphins.

And I reflected on that experience a decade ago realizing I put myself into solitary confinement - a prison punishment - and covid did that to billions of people who didn’t realize that social interaction is at the center of what gives us energy. So I deeply empathize.

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