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Surging Energy Prices in Europe in the Aftermath of the War

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Re: Surging Energy Prices in Europe in the Aftermath of the War

#51

Post by blub »

sorenjan wrote: post #46

This situation is infuriating to me as a Swede. We use basically no natural gas or oil for heating or power production, and right now we're exporting 3.8 GW to other countries, showing that we have a power surplus equaling several nuclear reactors. A few days ago I heard that we where the largest power exporter in Europe. Even so, our power prices are through the roof because the price is set by the high export price…

Perhaps it would soften the blow if one doesn’t think of the present problems as paying for the idiocy of others, but rather as helping fellow Europeans through a potentially long, cold winter. Or helping Ukraine fight for democracy, for freedom, for Europe.

I don’t think that in the EU we’ve fully exhausted the benefits of virtue and moral grandstanding, it’s too early to give up or be upset. And Sweden always had a claim at being a moral super-power.

Re: Surging Energy Prices in Europe in the Aftermath of the War

#52

Post by zppln »

sorenjan wrote: post #46

This situation is infuriating to me as a Swede. We use basically no natural gas or oil for heating or power production, and right now we're exporting 3.8 GW to other countries, showing that we have a power surplus equaling several nuclear reactors. A few days ago I heard that we where the largest power exporter in Europe. Even so, our power prices are through the roof because the price is set by the high export price…

My colleague joked today that this is the third time Germany ruins Europe...

Re: Surging Energy Prices in Europe in the Aftermath of the War

#53

Post by tmikaeld »

sorenjan wrote: post #46

This situation is infuriating to me as a Swede. We use basically no natural gas or oil for heating or power production, and right now we're exporting 3.8 GW to other countries, showing that we have a power surplus equaling several nuclear reactors. A few days ago I heard that we where the largest power exporter in Europe. Even so, our power prices are through the roof because the price is set by the high export price…

The fair thing would be for Swedes to pay pre-export prices.

Re: Surging Energy Prices in Europe in the Aftermath of the War

#54

Post by tmikaeld »

sorenjan wrote: post #49
not-my-account wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps a dumb question, but do many houses have chimneys? Would burning wood ameliorate the problem?

Firewood was in short supply and hard to find this winter and spring because of high power prices, imagine what will happen this coming winter with prices 5X-10X.

It's still a country with a lot of wood, finding a farmer willing to sell some even at the worst of times, are easier than any alternative.

Re: Surging Energy Prices in Europe in the Aftermath of the War

#55

Post by blub »

tenpies wrote: post #33
NDizzle wrote: post #2

It's easy to pivot to "the aftermath of war", but plenty, PLENTY of people and organizations pointed out that reliance on imported energy, especially from Russia, was not a great idea.

I actually went back and looked at US Presidents warning Europe about this. Trump famously did and the Germans laughed at him for it. Obama and Biden (both as VP and now as President) did. Even as far back as George Bush: he warned them, although it was presented more as a trade matter since it would have been beneficial for the energy industry and this was pre-fracking revolution. It has been a choir of warnings for…

I have to admit that the ending took me by surprise. I was expecting “…but the Europeans got tired of them calling wolf”.

Those pipelines were shipping gas to Europe literally for decades. Countries like Ukraine, Belarus or Poland were making handsome money from the transit fees too.

Re: Surging Energy Prices in Europe in the Aftermath of the War

#56

Post by amalter »

scratcheee wrote: post #24
codyb wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every good a poor person buys is shipped by fuel though? Edit: And the rich are more likely to be able to afford electric vehicles and appliances _and_ they of course are more likely to be able to take a hit to their finances and an upsurge in costs. The difference between going to the movies less and having to weigh getting all the food you need or all the toiletries you need is obviously quite large.

There's no doubt they help the poor a _little bit_ . The question is whether there exist alternative solutions that help the poor a lot more by not wasting so much helping the rich (or especially in this case - those buying and selling fossil fuels, industries we'd prefer to be slowing down rather than encouraging with tax breaks). Eg if the same money "spent" on this tax break had instead been a invested in raising…

To be fair, this is exactly what the TFA suggests:

> Policymakers have mostly responded to the shock with broad-based price-suppressing measures, including subsidies, tax reductions, and price controls.

> Going forward, the policy emphasis should shift rapidly towards allowing price signals to operate more freely and providing income relief to the vulnerable.

Re: Surging Energy Prices in Europe in the Aftermath of the War

#57

Post by niffydroid »

niffydroid wrote: post #48

In the uk here,. I'm lucky that I don't have to often check my bank account to see the balance. But boy, I am not looking forward to the winter, the government is paralysed and doesn't seem to be doing anything, when the new PM start I don't expect things to get resolved. When I moved house I didn't even have any supplier options as no one was taking new customers, I didn't even get asked how I'd like to pay, I'm str…

Oh and I really think the government should just ride roughshod over local authorities and allow wind turbines, solar etc to just get built with minimum fuss. Hell I'd even say the government should own nuclear power stations and just have someone run them.

Re: Surging Energy Prices in Europe in the Aftermath of the War

#58

Post by phicoh »

tenpies wrote: post #33
NDizzle wrote: post #2

It's easy to pivot to "the aftermath of war", but plenty, PLENTY of people and organizations pointed out that reliance on imported energy, especially from Russia, was not a great idea.

I actually went back and looked at US Presidents warning Europe about this. Trump famously did and the Germans laughed at him for it. Obama and Biden (both as VP and now as President) did. Even as far back as George Bush: he warned them, although it was presented more as a trade matter since it would have been beneficial for the energy industry and this was pre-fracking revolution. It has been a choir of warnings for…

The warnings are clear. But I'm sure some impact analysis was done to see how higher prices for natural gas would affect various industries.

It doesn't make it a wise choice to have no backup for Russian gas, but I'm sure the industry lobby to keep the cheap gas was very strong.

Re: Surging Energy Prices in Europe in the Aftermath of the War

#59

Post by sorenjan »

tmikaeld wrote: post #53
sorenjan wrote: post #46

This situation is infuriating to me as a Swede. We use basically no natural gas or oil for heating or power production, and right now we're exporting 3.8 GW to other countries, showing that we have a power surplus equaling several nuclear reactors. A few days ago I heard that we where the largest power exporter in Europe. Even so, our power prices are through the roof because the price is set by the high export price…

The fair thing would be for Swedes to pay pre-export prices.

Yes, especially because we already have four different price zones. Power is still relatively cheap in northern Sweden and out of control in the southern part. The reason for the zones are said to be because of limited transfer capability from the big hydro power plants from north to south, adding a fifth zone for export would seem to be the reasonable solution.

Re: Surging Energy Prices in Europe in the Aftermath of the War

#60

Post by blub »

zppln wrote: post #52
sorenjan wrote: post #46

This situation is infuriating to me as a Swede. We use basically no natural gas or oil for heating or power production, and right now we're exporting 3.8 GW to other countries, showing that we have a power surplus equaling several nuclear reactors. A few days ago I heard that we where the largest power exporter in Europe. Even so, our power prices are through the roof because the price is set by the high export price…

My colleague joked today that this is the third time Germany ruins Europe...

To be fair to Germany, only there can one import Russian gas at scale, take out all the genocide and terrorism using very precise custom designed filters and export it back to Poland or Ukraine as freedom gas.

Germany did end up getting a rather bad rap though, which is why I think Russia decided to help out by cutting gas deliveries.

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