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Programming on 34 Keys

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Re: Programming on 34 Keys

#51

Post by 600frogs »

I've fallen all the way down this rabbit hole - from a full-size to a 60% to an ergodox to a CRKBD (36 key split) - and come all the way out again, settling with a chiclet standard qwerty (Apple wireless keyboard).

I think the central hypothesis of using these keyboards is flawed. It seems to all centre around thinking that less movement is better, and that keeping as close to the home row as possible is king, even if that means chording, contorting your hands to reach far keys, and over-relying on your weak pinky fingers.

Human bodies are meant to move. I've found that since I've started dancing over keyboard more with my fingers (a sort of advanced hunt-and-peck using all fingers but the pinky), combined with using a low profile keyboard, my hand pain has disappeared, and I'm at my fastest WPM yet (105). YMMV of course, but it's worth considering if you're peering into the rabbit hole.

Re: Programming on 34 Keys

#52

Post by 0xdada »

aidenn0 wrote: post #38
nomel wrote: post #36

When I see this much effort, it just makes me think that, at some point, maybe it's worth ditching the whole concept of giant buttons: https://www.charachorder.com/products/charachorder-one

I'm blanking on the name, but there was an older 5-way switch keyboard, where the 4 non-thumb fingers went in a recess with 4 paddles and a push-button; I've known several people who used that because of severe RSI, but it was quite expensive. [edit] Searching split keyboards on google image search for long enough found it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DataHand#/media/File:DataHand_...

jesusfreke has a 3d printed version of this on github: https://github.com/JesusFreke/lalboard

Re: Programming on 34 Keys

#53

Post by bayindirh »

600frogs wrote: post #51

I've fallen all the way down this rabbit hole - from a full-size to a 60% to an ergodox to a CRKBD (36 key split) - and come all the way out again, settling with a chiclet standard qwerty (Apple wireless keyboard). I think the central hypothesis of using these keyboards is flawed. It seems to all centre around thinking that less movement is better, and that keeping as close to the home row as possible is king, even i…

> Human bodies are meant to move.

Most people don't understand it, or understand it too late, after they have joint pain.

I concur with you on these extremely pared down keyboards. It's a nice and niche optimization for the use cases you have (programming in a certain language, etc.), however the general applicability of the tool dies with every iteration, plus the movement aspect of the body.

I've moved to 75% keyboards because of a combination of minimalism and underutilized numpad (that part literally collects dust), however I'll not move beyond that size, because the F-Row and the standard keyboard layout is both needed and practical.

I have two keyboards (one for work, one for home). A Logitech K380, and a NuPhy Air75, both are nice and compact wireless keyboards with a 75% layout, and they are both comfortable and fast to use.

However, I don't rather comment on people's choices. It's their hobbies and path to exploration. They shall do as they please. Feel bad for the people who suffer RSI though.

Re: Programming on 34 Keys

#54

Post by bayindirh »

keyle wrote: post #41

Man. People really want to live on hard mode. When I see this layout I'm both amazed and thinking he must love copilot! Back in the days we used to pay extra to have more buttons! Extra F keys up top, two columns of function keys on the left etc. This minimalistic trend with keyboards isn't really making people more efficient as it is a conversation starter.

Many people don't use the F-Keys and don't know the joys and speed it brings. Instead they store macros to another layer, which includes the key-depth, but they don't care.

75% is a good compromise in size and usability in my experience.

Re: Programming on 34 Keys

#55

Post by daliusd »

I am using 34 keys keyboard as well, but instead of Miryoku based layout I am using Callum like layout. I am experimenting with it heavily but I feel like I am finally settling on something stable.

Here is PR if somebody else is interested that most probably will never get merged to QMK as they don't like unit-tests https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/pull/16174

The main difference from Miryoku that there is not tap-hold keys.

Re: Programming on 34 Keys

#56

Post by comfypotato »

bayindirh wrote: post #53
600frogs wrote: post #51

I've fallen all the way down this rabbit hole - from a full-size to a 60% to an ergodox to a CRKBD (36 key split) - and come all the way out again, settling with a chiclet standard qwerty (Apple wireless keyboard). I think the central hypothesis of using these keyboards is flawed. It seems to all centre around thinking that less movement is better, and that keeping as close to the home row as possible is king, even i…

> Human bodies are meant to move. Most people don't understand it, or understand it too late, after they have joint pain. I concur with you on these extremely pared down keyboards. It's a nice and niche optimization for the use cases you have (programming in a certain language, etc.), however the general applicability of the tool dies with every iteration, plus the movement aspect of the body. I've moved to 75% keybo…

I could argue this subject all day! Like you said, I do ultimately think it comes down to personal preference. If you like your setup, you’re going to get more done with less stress.

I really do feel that CRKBD has optimized a particular utility of keyboards (I use one). By having every key no more than one unit away from home, you can always be confident that you’re hitting exactly the right key. This eliminates errors in a way that I personally enjoy more than any alternative. With QMK, layers make full utilization of keycodes trivial. I use 20+ layers, and it’s second nature now that it’s all muscle memory.

Re: Programming on 34 Keys

#57

Post by comfypotato »

alpaca128 wrote: post #45
keyle wrote: post #41

Man. People really want to live on hard mode. When I see this layout I'm both amazed and thinking he must love copilot! Back in the days we used to pay extra to have more buttons! Extra F keys up top, two columns of function keys on the left etc. This minimalistic trend with keyboards isn't really making people more efficient as it is a conversation starter.

It's much more comfortable imho. You can reach all buttons without moving the hands all over the place, arrow keys are directly under my fingers at all times. It's not faster if you meant that with "efficient", but it certainly makes standard keyboards feel cumbersome to use. On the other hand more keys everywhere don't make you more efficient either, they just increase the chance of you messing up a hand movement wh…

For me, it’s the confidence of knowing you’re hitting the right key. Memorizing how your layers are configured is nbd (it quickly become second nature). 42 keys (CRKBD?) allows you to confidently strike each key and confidently return to home. I’ve never been able to guarantee this if a single key is even 2 units away from home.

That being said, I think the most important thing is that you like what you’re using. If you prefer Mac’s native keyboard, more power to you. More keyboard happiness is less work stress.

Re: Programming on 34 Keys

#58

Post by comfypotato »

shadowofneptune wrote: post #37

The given reason for going from 58 keys, then to 34, is ergononics. There has to be a better way to provide ergonomics than such a heavily shifted system, no? I'm not sure I could switch to a keyboard if it meant giving up QWERTY touch typing.

I haven’t given up touch typing QWERTY letters. Basically everything I need for “chat” is on my base layer of 42 keys. On top of that, I use a system of 20+ layers that has become second nature to me. It’s really wonderful and I feel like the average person confined to a built-in laptop keyboard is missing out. I’m constantly mapping application-custom functionality to a 2-stroke combo (Emacs).

That being said, the most important thing is that you enjoy what you’re typing on.

Re: Programming on 34 Keys

#60

Post by raffraffraff »

keyle wrote: post #41

Man. People really want to live on hard mode. When I see this layout I'm both amazed and thinking he must love copilot! Back in the days we used to pay extra to have more buttons! Extra F keys up top, two columns of function keys on the left etc. This minimalistic trend with keyboards isn't really making people more efficient as it is a conversation starter.

Amen. I know a guy who moved to one of these minimalist keyboards (clickity keys on a lovely mahogany plank). He claimed that he could type just as fast on it, but it must have been like Invisible Boy in "Mystery Men": he could only do it when nobody was watching.
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