A glance suggests that Saccharine and Sucralose may be problematic. The others may be “complicated” but the effect also looks close to noise. They should have included some non-sweetener molecules of a similar nature as controls. Sucralose was an instant no to me when I saw the molecule. “Here let’s hang a chlorine off this here sugar.” Nope. I recall seeing similar sentiments in a thread over at Reddit where a bioch…
Microbiome-driven effects of non-nutritive sweeteners on human glucose tolerance
51–60 of 75 posts
Re: Microbiome-driven effects of non-nutritive sweeteners on human glucose tolerance
#52Anecdotally, as a type 1 diabetic it’s very interesting to observe different effects of sugars and sweeteners on my continuous blood glucose sensor over time. For example DASH is a zero-calorie but sweet drink I have tried a couple of times and it makes my body chart a course for the moon. Another drink called Gusto seems to have replaced sugars with Agave syrup, which works well at first but after several days build…
Lately, I have been experimenting with the "grazing diet". Instead of eating three meals a day one would eat a dozen or more really small meals; basically snacks.
The motivation was that the glucose response profile of my insulin was poorly matched with the glucose response profile of the foods I eat. My insulin (Humalog), has a profile lasting three to four hours, while most of my foods have a much shorter profile, some with a profile of an hour or less. By spreading my carbohydrate intake over more time I get a better match to my insulin response. For example, I spend two or more hours eating lunch. So far, it seems to be helping noticeably.
Re: Microbiome-driven effects of non-nutritive sweeteners on human glucose tolerance
#53Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If you average any trial out in a large population there will be "noise", but these people who live with the "noise" are the ones affected and suffering. If you do a trial in a large population of a drug, device, or clinical practice that does nothing - a perfect placebo- you'll see a variety of effects: statistical noise. If you do a trial in a large population of a drug, device, or clinical practice that has an e…
> You can't generally tell for any individual whether the drug helped or hurt. But you can tell that more people did well (or badly) in group A than group B. That is what they found in this study, but the OP said it was likely "noise" and had no scientific basis for saying that. My point; saying something is "noise" is a way to look cool on HN and dismiss any finding that does not fit your world view.
It's a small finding in both effect size and statistical significance, and prior probabilities count.
Barely statistically significant findings don't change my beliefs much, because the base rate and prior knowledge matter.
E.g. if you show me a pIf you show me a pHere, the commenter you replied to-- api-- suggested that the study clearly indicates that there's reason to be concerned about saccharine and sucralose. It raises a general level of concern about other NNS's, but the data is ambiguous and weak. This is a reasonable reading of the study.
Re: Microbiome-driven effects of non-nutritive sweeteners on human glucose tolerance
#54Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If you manage to model the "noise" and make it somewhat deterministic then it's not noise any more. Yes. That is called doing science. > If genetic variations really are the reason for these variations and some people are indeed measurably harmed by these compounds then it would be a very interesting and somewhat alarming result, but that's not what the study says or what we can conclude from it. What would make me…
You know what isn't science? Not doing any of that and just going off on a study that's led to more questions (aka, science) in the comments of Hacker News. Their study had a scope, they did the study and found some results then drew some conclusions. They also found the study wasn't large enough to draw all conclusions because of noise, something they didn't know before the study. > Saying anything is noise only dis…
Listen, the term noise is probably the worst term for this data. Because we don’t know if it’s noise until we examine to see if it is noise. So until we know it’s noise we can’t call it noise. It’s like you’re walking into a crowded room and you’re trying to hear one thing but there is too much “noise”. This assumes we know what we’re looking for in the first place.
Re: Microbiome-driven effects of non-nutritive sweeteners on human glucose tolerance
#55A glance suggests that Saccharine and Sucralose may be problematic. The others may be “complicated” but the effect also looks close to noise. They should have included some non-sweetener molecules of a similar nature as controls. Sucralose was an instant no to me when I saw the molecule. “Here let’s hang a chlorine off this here sugar.” Nope. I recall seeing similar sentiments in a thread over at Reddit where a bioch…
Isn’t bleach just a water molecule with an extra oxygen atom? I’m not a chemist but I didn’t think you could make assumptions about the effect of a substance in the way you describe. Am I missing something?
"Bleach" can refer to any chemical that makes things whiter. Common laundry bleach is usually a chlorine bleach, most often Sodium Hypochlorite (NaClO, SMILES `[Na+].[O-]Cl`).
There are a bunch of other bleaches[1].
Re: Microbiome-driven effects of non-nutritive sweeteners on human glucose tolerance
#56Earlier quoted context omitted.
Erythritol as a NNS is claimed/marketed not to effect the gut biome, indeed to pass through the body unmetabolized.
This is a bit more complicated, it is not really metabolized but it does have a big impact because it is absorbed by the gut and also change bacterial populations... https://academic.oup.com/advances/article/10/suppl_1/S31/530...
Re: Microbiome-driven effects of non-nutritive sweeteners on human glucose tolerance
#57I use stevia as a replacement for sugar. This research is difficult to understand for a layperson like me (I'm too thick). Is anyone able to answer the questions below? --- Extract : "non-nutritive sweeteners (NNS), such as saccharin, sucralose, aspartame, acesulfame-K, and stevia, that do not contain calories and are thereby presumed to be inert and not elicit a postprandial glycemic response." Question : Does this…
[Disclaimer: Not a doctor or nutrition expert] From what I've read about postprandial glucose levels, the question seems less about whether or not something elicits a glycemic response, but by how much and how that compares to glucose/fructose. Another useful measure would be comparing satiation after consumption of sugar vs non-caloric sweeteners, to determine if the significant drop in calories leads to more food i…
A healthy subject, say in their mid twenties, should be able to consume 60g glucose almost instantaneously and have little to no affect on blood glucose. That same subject, if they were to repeatedly do that, multiple times a day, for four decades, is highly likely to have Type 2 diabetes and a heart condition, also likely to have a kidney condition, peripheral neuropathy, macular degeneration, etc take your pick.
The interesting question is what are the long term effects. There are no positive outcomes for a long term high sugar content diet, and I argue that taking any one plant derived, or synthetic chemical, concentrating it and consuming it, is either nutritively, or medically, beneficial, or, if not beneficial, will work, at least to some extent, to tax the body by making healthy homeostatic more difficult.
As an aside, and this isn't directed at you in particular, but at the HN community, if such a thing can be said to exist, more broadly: frameworks.
What frameworks exist within which do make sense of nutritional / health information. How are we to live? What are some (any?) of these frameworks, and where should we go to read about them?
Re: Microbiome-driven effects of non-nutritive sweeteners on human glucose tolerance
#58A glance suggests that Saccharine and Sucralose may be problematic. The others may be “complicated” but the effect also looks close to noise. They should have included some non-sweetener molecules of a similar nature as controls. Sucralose was an instant no to me when I saw the molecule. “Here let’s hang a chlorine off this here sugar.” Nope. I recall seeing similar sentiments in a thread over at Reddit where a bioch…
Re: Microbiome-driven effects of non-nutritive sweeteners on human glucose tolerance
#59Anecdotally, as a type 1 diabetic it’s very interesting to observe different effects of sugars and sweeteners on my continuous blood glucose sensor over time. For example DASH is a zero-calorie but sweet drink I have tried a couple of times and it makes my body chart a course for the moon. Another drink called Gusto seems to have replaced sugars with Agave syrup, which works well at first but after several days build…
Re: Microbiome-driven effects of non-nutritive sweeteners on human glucose tolerance
#60The Segal and Elinav labs are powerhouses in computational and gnotobiotic microbiome study. They've published several highly cited papers around interactions between diet, the microbiome, and various host parameters. A couple highlights include this [1] 2015 Cell paper predicting host glycemic response from microbial and dietary information, and this [2] 2014 Nature paper identifying artificial sweeteners as a source of glucose intolerance (mediated through the microbiome).
In the current work, they show that two non-nutritive sweeteners (NNS, saccharin and sucralose) impair glucose tolerance, and that the microbiome of individuals most susceptible to NNS-induced glucose-intolerance can transmit some of the phenotype to mice. These data are generated with human cohorts of good size (n=20 per sweetener) over a reasonable time frame (2 weeks of daily NNS administration). Importantly, the levels of NNS that are administered are well below the acceptable daily intake (ADI). For example, sucralose is given at 102 mg/day, about 34% of the ADI of 5 mg/kg, and reasonably close to an estimate of 1.6 mg/kg as average daily consumption in humans (reference in [3]). The strongest data for the paper is with sucralose (and saccharin). The researchers show that consumption of sucralose causes a shift in glycemic response: participants consuming sucralose had higher glucose excursion in a glucose tolerance test (GTT) than those consuming either control diet (Fig 2A, E, F). In addition to GTT changes, sucralose-consuming participants had altered level of 9 identified metabolites (Fig 4B-D).
After establishing these baseline results, the researchers search for mechanism by stratifying the sucralose cohort in the top and bottom responders. These are, respectively, the individuals who show most change from baseline in GTT at the end of intervention (2 weeks) and those that show the least. There are differences in metabolites, as well as the biochemical pathways those metabolites come from (TCA cycle) in these two groups (Fig 4E, F). There are correlations between changes in the microbiome (both specific taxa and functional gene categories) and the changes in measured metabolite levels as well (Fig 5).
In figure 6, the researchers present their strongest data. The researchers inoculate groups of germ-free mice with fecal samples from the sucralose participants from either the baseline or end of intervention. 4 groups of mice receive the feces of the top 1-4 responders (most perturbed GTT), 3 groups receive feces from the bottom 1-3 responders, and each of these is compared to a group receiving baseline feces. The purpose of this test is to see if the microbiome, altered by sucralose administration, can cause impaired glucose tolerance in mice that have never been exposed to sucralose. The researchers show that indeed there is significant glucose-tolerance impairment in mice that receive post-sucralose feeding feces, though interetingly they show that both bottom- and top-responder feces causes this (Fig 6A, G). They show that baseline samples from bottom- and top-responders do not cause differences in glucose tolerance (Fig 8C), showing that something about the sucralose treatment changes microbial composition to promote glucose intolerance. The researchers attempt to find a mechanistic explanation for the differences by comparing groups of mice colonized with top- and bottom-responder (grouped by baseline or end of intervention) feces.
Ultimately, this is an extremely impressive paper representing a lot of work (and many storied I haven't recapped). Like many microbiome papers, I think it oversells the mechanistic and physiologically relevant aspects of the research.
1. The data is presented in ways that maximize statistical significance with very little reference to the scale of the actual change. a. Fig 4 B-D and Fig 5 B, D, F show significant metabolite differences but give no reference to actual changes in blood concentration (also Fig 5 metabolites not significant after FDR correction). Without isotope-dilution mass spectrometry (which this is not), it's hard to tell how large the changes are in the blood metabolites. The relationship between concentration of a metabolite and measured area on a mass spec is a power function (for different metabolites exponents can be less or greater than 1), and so this data may represent a lot of change in concentration or very little. In addition, the authors rely on GTT differences to tell the story, but what is the scale of these changes? It is not clear that there is physiological relevance to this scale of change. b. Many of the metrics used are hard to relate to physiologically relevant quantities and allow researcher degrees of freedom. As an example Fig 3 ordinates the participant samples using a principal components projection of the microbial gene annotations. The loadings determining the ordination - and selected for highlight are shown in Fig 3 G-J. The researchers group several of these loadings into super pathways (e.g. purine metabolism) but it's very hard to tell if this kind of difference reflects a functional capacity change in the microbiome (and certainly gives no data about the actual transcription of these genes). Any of these groupings could be highlighted, allowing a lot of flexibility in the storytelling with no penalization for multiple hypotheses. c. Fig 8J "Spearman correlation of sucrose degradation pathway fold change abundance (day 21/baseline) with fold difference in GTT-AUC of each of the conventionalized mouse groups." This is so far away from physiology it's hard to say what it means.
2. Both Eran Segal and Eran Elinav are co-founders of the company DayTwo - a personalized microbiome company that helps diabetics manage their symptoms with microbiome based analytics and treatments. The paper feels like it explores the 'personalization angle' and the expense of other mechanistic studies. For example, the importance of osmolarity on the microbiome and how phenotypes around osmostress might be contributing to the resulting host phenotypes.
[1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S009286741... [2] https://www.nature.com/articles/nature13793?tdc_uid=921043 [3] https://foodinsight.org/everything-you-need-to-know-about-su...