Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too” • Hacker News Board

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#51

Post by mikkergp » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 9:14 PM UTC

blagie wrote: post #31

If I were running a business ethically, I'd want to mute my criticism of politics, including fairly extreme ones. Partisanship is tearing the world apart. I want people with different viewpoints to interact. That's the only way to address them. If we don't work together and we don't shop together, we'll grow more polarized as a result. Democracy isn't a battle, and you win by convincing people, and not by beating the…

I think it gets the gnarliest in conversations about discrimination. We have notions of "protected classes" and "non-protected classes", and the recent discussions about caste discrimination are pretty exemplary. And sometimes you can't help but take a side. I don't know that I always think inaction is taking a side, but once you become aware of people taking actions in your company, like a higher caste firing a lower caste, it's harder to make that argument.

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#52

Post by V__ » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 9:15 PM UTC

blagie wrote: post #31

If I were running a business ethically, I'd want to mute my criticism of politics, including fairly extreme ones. Partisanship is tearing the world apart. I want people with different viewpoints to interact. That's the only way to address them. If we don't work together and we don't shop together, we'll grow more polarized as a result. Democracy isn't a battle, and you win by convincing people, and not by beating the…

I agree with you that partisanship and polarization are making it worse. However, you imply that "both sides" are just as extreme, but that isn't often the case. Let's exaggerate it to: "Russians buy sneakers too" or "Taliban are religious too" or something alike. A business saying "We want the Russian military and the Ukrainian civilians to interact, share different viewpoints and prevent partisanship" would sound ridiculous.

My example is obviously exaggerated but my point is: Right now there is only one really extreme "side" in the U.S., so it doesn't come across odd that some businesses for ethical reasons and some for efficient reasons try to position themselves against it.

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#53

Post by pessimizer » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 9:15 PM UTC

The woke-PR institutions that are meant to be criticized by this already account for it. Companies that sell direct-to-consumer are not trying to outwoke each other, they're resting in the same moderate, optimistic, positive, there are well-intentioned people on both sides place they always were.

Where you see the aggressive enforcement of woke sentiment is within industries who are fighting regulation. To think about Republican voters (not politicians, who are of course important for them) is wasted time. All of them are going to vote for politicians who will not regulate these companies, no matter how their base feels about the companies and their messaging. Their Democratic politicians, however, could be voted out and replaced with eager regulators for helping a company that has been cancelled.

Instead of thinking about regulation, it's important that the Democratic voter ask: “If we broke up the big banks tomorrow... would that end racism? Would that end sexism?”

i.e. Their Dem politicians need to be protected, their Republican politicians do not.

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#54

Post by feet » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 9:16 PM UTC

mikkergp wrote: post #51

blagie wrote: post #31

If I were running a business ethically, I'd want to mute my criticism of politics, including fairly extreme ones. Partisanship is tearing the world apart. I want people with different viewpoints to interact. That's the only way to address them. If we don't work together and we don't shop together, we'll grow more polarized as a result. Democracy isn't a battle, and you win by convincing people, and not by beating the…

I think it gets the gnarliest in conversations about discrimination. We have notions of "protected classes" and "non-protected classes", and the recent discussions about caste discrimination are pretty exemplary. And sometimes you can't help but take a side. I don't know that I always think inaction is taking a side, but once you become aware of people taking actions in your company, like a higher caste firing a lowe…

Inaction is absolutely complicity. By doing and saying nothing you're stating the issue doesn't matter enough to you to not let it continue.

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#55

Post by scarface74 » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 9:16 PM UTC

xwdv wrote: post #26

Barrin92 wrote: post #13

The positive framing of this phenomenon is strange. Someone muting his criticism against an open segregationist because his voters buy sneakers is probably one of the more cartoonish examples of market logic and self-interest crowding out people's values. And I mean this even in a value neutral sense in regards to the topic itself. It's as if a devout Christian would start selling abortion pills or a pacifist became…

Unless you are a politician, there is no reason for anyone to know your own personal political views. Any announcement of such views is signaling. It serves no other purpose.

Let’s say I’m a corporation who gives marital benefits. But some of my employees can’t get married because the state doesn’t allow gay marriage. Should the corporation not take a stance?

Should corporations not have taken a stance about doing business in South Africa before apartheid was abolished?

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#56

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 9:16 PM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #53

The woke-PR institutions that are meant to be criticized by this already account for it. Companies that sell direct-to-consumer are not trying to outwoke each other, they're resting in the same moderate, optimistic, positive, there are well-intentioned people on both sides place they always were. Where you see the aggressive enforcement of woke sentiment is within industries who are fighting regulation. To think abou…

[deleted]

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#57

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 9:17 PM UTC

blagie wrote: post #31

If I were running a business ethically, I'd want to mute my criticism of politics, including fairly extreme ones. Partisanship is tearing the world apart. I want people with different viewpoints to interact. That's the only way to address them. If we don't work together and we don't shop together, we'll grow more polarized as a result. Democracy isn't a battle, and you win by convincing people, and not by beating the…

[deleted]

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#58

Post by alex_young » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 9:17 PM UTC

zmgsabst wrote: post #23

alex_young wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to paraphrase a bit, are you suggesting that any athlete with any merchandise is hypocritical for stating any socially progressive opinion? That seems like a very rigid standard IMO.

No, what I said was very narrow — if you outspokenly condemn historic slavery in the US while profiting from companies that use slave labor, you’re the definition of a hypocrite. There are “progressive” opinions unrelated which wouldn’t be hypocritical, eg, advocating for universal healthcare while profiting from slaves. Edit: example related to healthcare here, since I hit the posting cap — I think the closer exampl…

While I respect your position, I do think there seems to be something else going on here I don't understand.

According to the standard you've outlined, wouldn't someone be hypocritical if they advocated for universal healthcare while profiting from selling products made by those living in a place without universal healthcare?

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#59

Post by selectodude » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 9:17 PM UTC

zmgsabst wrote: post #17

Barrin92 wrote: post #13

The positive framing of this phenomenon is strange. Someone muting his criticism against an open segregationist because his voters buy sneakers is probably one of the more cartoonish examples of market logic and self-interest crowding out people's values. And I mean this even in a value neutral sense in regards to the topic itself. It's as if a devout Christian would start selling abortion pills or a pacifist became…

I don’t think that’s true — there’s second order effects in play, beyond shallow virtue signaling. People respect Jordan unlike Kapernick or James, because Jordan didn’t hypocritically involve himself in politics — unlike those two who haven been outspoken against racism and slavery… except for the slaves making the shoes they advertise. They’re perfectly fine profiting from those slaves. - - - - - I also think your…

As somebody who grew up in Chicago during his time with the Bulls, I can assure you that we all love Michael Jordan as a basketball player but I don't know anybody who has ever had a positive interaction with the guy. He's not somebody anybody respects.

Re: Michael Jordan: “Republicans Buy Sneakers Too”

#60

Post by geraldwhen » Thu, Aug 18, 2022, 9:17 PM UTC

V__ wrote: post #52

blagie wrote: post #31

If I were running a business ethically, I'd want to mute my criticism of politics, including fairly extreme ones. Partisanship is tearing the world apart. I want people with different viewpoints to interact. That's the only way to address them. If we don't work together and we don't shop together, we'll grow more polarized as a result. Democracy isn't a battle, and you win by convincing people, and not by beating the…

I agree with you that partisanship and polarization are making it worse. However, you imply that "both sides" are just as extreme, but that isn't often the case. Let's exaggerate it to: "Russians buy sneakers too" or "Taliban are religious too" or something alike. A business saying "We want the Russian military and the Ukrainian civilians to interact, share different viewpoints and prevent partisanship" would sound r…

Whether you understand it or not you have taken an extreme political position.

“Their politics are politics. Our politics are ethics/human rights.”

It’s all politics and refusing to see that is extremely divisive.