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The Bay Area's lost streetcars

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Re: The Bay Area's lost streetcars

#51

Post by Animats »

systemvoltage wrote: post #8
hadlock wrote: post #2

What a lot of pro-transit (full disclosure, I am full transit) folks fail to mention, is that most streetcars were initially built, in particular, those out towards the sunset, big chunks of LA, were actually built by property developers, as an incentive, "look! see! don't need a car! just like urban living, but look at all this extra space you get! just take the street car into town". Street cars were run at break e…

To make this happen, first, East Bay needs to make streets safer. It is ridiculous how crime ridden Oakland and Berkeley are to the point where it is probably wise to avoid public transportation all together. We need a national guard deployed here 24/7, that's how I feel walking around in downtown Oakland. With NYCSPA vs Bruen ruling, I am planning to obtain a handgun and a CCW license from Alameda sheriff with a sha…

Pepper spray and tear gas, which are legal to carry in California, are probably more useful. You can use them in situations where shooting someone would get you charged with assault with a deadly weapon, attempted murder, or murder. Against crazies and druggies, brandishing a gun without using it isn't that effective and may make things worse. Cops struggle with this - they're called to deal with crazies, it's hard to do, and shooting them is not a good option.

Re: The Bay Area's lost streetcars

#52

Post by mymyairduster »

m0llusk wrote: post #33
washbrain wrote: post #14

Many cities had "streetcar suburbs", developments on the fringes of town serviced by street cars that took people to work. Sadly, they were largely decommissioned and replaced with buses or nothing. We badly need to get more trains moving through American cities. I'd prefer grade separated, but honestly even if we had streetcars running in from all the suburbs that'd be pretty great. It's also worth mentioning the Ge…

This always comes up, but is not accurate. Streetcars were never greatly loved. They were boiling hot in the summer, freezing in winter, the ride was jarring, and they were crowded with all manner of people. During the war maintenance was deferred to the point that at the end of the war most such lines needed to be rebuilt in order to stay in operation. Ripping them out to build roads for cars was not a conspiracy bu…

the modern ones work well in toronto mixed with the other transportation modes which is probably a better point of reference for american cities than the various EU/Asian examples people bring up

Re: The Bay Area's lost streetcars

#53

Post by radiojasper »

I'm a bit sad you can't navigate through the photos with arrow keys on the keyboard.

There is also no way to interact with the 3 year buttons with keyboard (1941, 1956, 2020) because when using tab, the buttons are completely skipped.

Lastly, when I click an external link (eg. the link to Chris Arvin's website [0] and then click Back in my browser, I'm back at the homepage and not on the map I had previously selected. This is because the selected map does not change the URL and therefore loads nothing in the browser's navigation history.

All in all, this makes this website unusuable for people with certain disabilities, because it always requires a mouse to use the website.

[0] http://chrisarv.in/

Re: The Bay Area's lost streetcars

#54

Post by 62951413 »

For those in the East Bay, https://www.eastbayhillsproject.org/ is such a mesmerizing place to read about the old times. And see the pictures of the places you know which looked so different just a couple generations ago. Electric trains, forgotten tunnels under the Berkeley Hills, much simpler times.

Re: The Bay Area's lost streetcars

#55

Post by twobitshifter »

mc32 wrote: post #35
hadlock wrote: post #2

What a lot of pro-transit (full disclosure, I am full transit) folks fail to mention, is that most streetcars were initially built, in particular, those out towards the sunset, big chunks of LA, were actually built by property developers, as an incentive, "look! see! don't need a car! just like urban living, but look at all this extra space you get! just take the street car into town". Street cars were run at break e…

It’s a classical conspiracy theory. There are truths interspersed with assumptions and fabrications sustained by a fantastical desire -in this case halcyon of dependable public transit everywhere which was razed by greedy bus manufacturing companies in cahoots with petrochemical companies. When in reality it’s closer to the story of the ferries that ferried cars across the bay before the bridges were built. Or the st…

Interesting that you mentioned the decline of ferries. Streetcar systems depended on ferries to bring riders their way. If you are making a trip by ferry you’ll need a way to get around when you get off on the other shore. The Atlantic Avenue line in Boston is a good example of a ferry dependent line. Once they opened the East Boston and Sumner tunnels and people could drive through the Bay, taking the train became much less attractive.

Re: The Bay Area's lost streetcars

#56

Post by nibbleshifter »

Animats wrote: post #51
systemvoltage wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To make this happen, first, East Bay needs to make streets safer. It is ridiculous how crime ridden Oakland and Berkeley are to the point where it is probably wise to avoid public transportation all together. We need a national guard deployed here 24/7, that's how I feel walking around in downtown Oakland. With NYCSPA vs Bruen ruling, I am planning to obtain a handgun and a CCW license from Alameda sheriff with a sha…

Pepper spray and tear gas, which are legal to carry in California, are probably more useful. You can use them in situations where shooting someone would get you charged with assault with a deadly weapon, attempted murder, or murder. Against crazies and druggies, brandishing a gun without using it isn't that effective and may make things worse. Cops struggle with this - they're called to deal with crazies, it's hard t…

Its usually advised to carry both, so you have options. And to train with both.

Pepper spray doesn't always work, nor is it always the appropriate tool for the job.

And if you are carrying a firearm, carrying an IFAK is highly recommended.

For anyone and everyone, taking a "stop the bleed" class is highly recommended.

Re: The Bay Area's lost streetcars

#57

Post by flomo »

m-ee wrote: post #7
melony wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason they are failing is because they are slow ass and never modernized. Now they are primarily tourist traps. SF is a bad example of a city with street cars, there are many countries with much better implementations of street cars. You need to give street cars priority and make sure they don't get overly slowed down by city traffic. If you want people to take streetcars, overhaul the entire infrastructure. You…

The N Judah actually managed to get slower. Having trouble finding the photo but someone posted an N Judah schedule on reddit from the early 1900s and it was actually faster to get to downtown than it is now. EDIT- Article about it https://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/01/us/san-francisco-muni-str...

The T-Third is also slower than the bus it replaced, and that was only like 20 years ago.

Re: The Bay Area's lost streetcars

#58

Post by rayiner »

NoToP wrote: post #4
hadlock wrote: post #2

What a lot of pro-transit (full disclosure, I am full transit) folks fail to mention, is that most streetcars were initially built, in particular, those out towards the sunset, big chunks of LA, were actually built by property developers, as an incentive, "look! see! don't need a car! just like urban living, but look at all this extra space you get! just take the street car into town". Street cars were run at break e…

Hold up. Why would people who weren't willing to accept the taxes to maintain the street car willing to instead pay all the tax which subsidizes car infrastructure. This narrative doesn't quite add up because everything you said about why the street car existed and the commuter pattern that fed into the economics of developers applies equally well to why cars and suburb development exists. So once suburban homes were…

Because private cars are incredibly convenient compared to street cars. Faced with significant tax increases for street cars that only go a few places, and car infrastructure that can allow people to go directly from point to point, it was a no brainer.

I just loaded up my Toyota 4Runner and dumped a bunch of junk at the town dump. I didn’t plan this in advance, I didn’t have to rent a truck (how do I get there anyway?) I just did it on a whim. To compete with the convenience of point to point private transit, public transit would have to be vastly cheaper and it isn’t.

Re: The Bay Area's lost streetcars

#59

Post by ghaff »

WalterBright wrote: post #43
AlbertCory wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People were not walking with cameras like they are now. A camera was a big object and you had to buy film for it.

I would walk around with a camera many times before iphones. I still didn't take pictures of ordinary street life, because it seemed completely uninteresting. My parents were also amateur photographers, and rarely took street pictures. I had a camera in college, but rarely took pictures of ordinary things. When I look at the pictures I took, it seems they are of all the wrong things.

In a lot of cities and city neighborhoods it would be fascinating to have a "StreetView" of at least more interesting neighborhoods over time. But, as you say, even with relatively cheap B&W film, that would still have cost a fair bit of money and time and very few people systematically did such things.

In a somewhat similar vein, I unearthed a book a long ago company did in the 80s called "A Year in Development" which had all these photos and random detail about what was going on during a year--with a mostly engineering slant. Especially at the time, that sort of quotidian detail was rarely documented at all.

Re: The Bay Area's lost streetcars

#60

Post by AlbertCory »

WalterBright wrote: post #43
AlbertCory wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People were not walking with cameras like they are now. A camera was a big object and you had to buy film for it.

I would walk around with a camera many times before iphones. I still didn't take pictures of ordinary street life, because it seemed completely uninteresting. My parents were also amateur photographers, and rarely took street pictures. I had a camera in college, but rarely took pictures of ordinary things. When I look at the pictures I took, it seems they are of all the wrong things.

Yeah. A photograph was expensive in terms of your time (and money). Especially if it meant you had to change the film.

So many lost opportunities. When I was writing [1] I absolutely could not find any photos of the golf place, which is now gone.

You'd think the family would have some (I'm sure they do), but they completely ghosted me. No one from the old 'hood has any.

[1] https://albertcory50.substack.com/p/no-compliments-at-the-mi...

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