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Linux 5.19

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Re: Linux 5.19

#51

Post by hnlmorg »

sgjohnson wrote: post #41
hnlmorg wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots more different than that: + Windows has the Windows key (which Linux called "super") + Windows also has the context menu key, which I think it pretty useless to be honest but others might get value from that + The Mac keyboard layout is US-like, even on European models. Which means a bunch of keys are in different places from their European IBM counterparts (like @ and "). The # and / keys I find particularly ha…

> The Mac keyboard layout is US-like This is absolutely false. European Mac keyboards are ISO. The labeling doesn’t matter, as rolling your own layout is trivial.

Being ISO doesn't mean it's not "US-like". The UK layout, for example, does differ considerably between Macs and IBM, with the UK Mac layout being closer to a US layout than a UK IBM layout (examples posted here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32304113). I couldn't give a crap if the UK Mac layout is an ISO standard or not because that doesn't magically change the way I use a keyboard.

Furthermore I made the exact same point about redefining the layout. You claim to debunk my post yet go on to make literally the same points I did. In literally the same bullet point you're trying to debunk too!

(I'd forgotten why I usually avoid commenting on Apple-based threads. Ever word is analysed and if it can be interpreted in even a remotely disparaging way by either your Apple or Linux fanboys, then they'll stop reading the entirety of your comment and pull that one phrase out with some terse rebuttal phrased as if the original poster was an idiot. Completely irrelevant of whether that rebuttal is actually just reiterating the OPs comment or even if the original comment, when read in full, was actually negative at all.

Re: Linux 5.19

#52

Post by JonChesterfield »

moonchrome wrote: post #50
nicoburns wrote: post #21

Somewhat surprisingly, Linux support for Apple Silicon MacBooks seems to be shaping up to be better than that for pretty much any other laptop. The Asahi team don’t have support for everything yet (notably no GPU) but what they do have support for seems to be high quality, well integrated with Linux’s conventions, and upstreamed into the mainline kernel! How much other hardware can claim that? The Asahi developers ha…

Yeah I'm going to use a completely custom SoC + enthusiast driven driver support - with no support from manufacturer - to be my daily driver as a developer. Because I've got nothing better to do with my time than diagnose issues due to running a setup only 50 other people in the world use.

If some of those 50 are kernel devs Linux is likely to run just fine.

Re: Linux 5.19

#53

Post by dijit »

moonchrome wrote: post #50
nicoburns wrote: post #21

Somewhat surprisingly, Linux support for Apple Silicon MacBooks seems to be shaping up to be better than that for pretty much any other laptop. The Asahi team don’t have support for everything yet (notably no GPU) but what they do have support for seems to be high quality, well integrated with Linux’s conventions, and upstreamed into the mainline kernel! How much other hardware can claim that? The Asahi developers ha…

Yeah I'm going to use a completely custom SoC + enthusiast driven driver support - with no support from manufacturer - to be my daily driver as a developer. Because I've got nothing better to do with my time than diagnose issues due to running a setup only 50 other people in the world use.

Honestly. That’s what I’ve been doing my entire professional career.

Modern laptops are not materially different from SoCs, everything is soldered to the board and the CPU does basically everything memory related.

I guess you think that Intel designs are an open standard?

At the very least they’re extremely patent incumbered; with AMD and Intel having a sort of patent truce between them.

Re: Linux 5.19

#54

Post by AshamedCaptain »

rowanG077 wrote: post #48
amelius wrote: post #33

Wait, if Linus is happy about supporting undocumented hardware, then does he like NVidia now too?

Nvidia is actively hostile. Apple is slightly willing to get Linux to work. It's not comperable.

But it's still discouraging to the companies that actually support Linux.

Re: Linux 5.19

#55

Post by moonchrome »

dijit wrote: post #53
moonchrome wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I'm going to use a completely custom SoC + enthusiast driven driver support - with no support from manufacturer - to be my daily driver as a developer. Because I've got nothing better to do with my time than diagnose issues due to running a setup only 50 other people in the world use.

Honestly. That’s what I’ve been doing my entire professional career. Modern laptops are not materially different from SoCs, everything is soldered to the board and the CPU does basically everything memory related. I guess you think that Intel designs are an open standard? At the very least they’re extremely patent incumbered; with AMD and Intel having a sort of patent truce between them.

Intel and AMD have developers working on Linux support and drivers and support running Linux on their hardware.

Re: Linux 5.19

#56

Post by mort96 »

moonchrome wrote: post #50
nicoburns wrote: post #21

Somewhat surprisingly, Linux support for Apple Silicon MacBooks seems to be shaping up to be better than that for pretty much any other laptop. The Asahi team don’t have support for everything yet (notably no GPU) but what they do have support for seems to be high quality, well integrated with Linux’s conventions, and upstreamed into the mainline kernel! How much other hardware can claim that? The Asahi developers ha…

Yeah I'm going to use a completely custom SoC + enthusiast driven driver support - with no support from manufacturer - to be my daily driver as a developer. Because I've got nothing better to do with my time than diagnose issues due to running a setup only 50 other people in the world use.

Most laptops don't use a completely custom SoC, but most of them have enthusiast driven driver support -- or worse, formerly-enthusiast driven driver support where nobody currently cares -- with no support from the manufacturer. And on less popular hardware; the most popular laptop models in the world are macs.

If you want manufacturer support, you need to use macOS or Windows or one of the very limited selection of laptops which feature Linux as an option. Most people who use Linux probably already use Linux on a computer without manufacturer support. If that's not for you though, that's totally fine.

Re: Linux 5.19

#57

Post by adrian_b »

nicoburns wrote: post #21

Somewhat surprisingly, Linux support for Apple Silicon MacBooks seems to be shaping up to be better than that for pretty much any other laptop. The Asahi team don’t have support for everything yet (notably no GPU) but what they do have support for seems to be high quality, well integrated with Linux’s conventions, and upstreamed into the mainline kernel! How much other hardware can claim that? The Asahi developers ha…

The rapid progress of the Asahi Linux team is very impressive, but there is no need to exaggerate.

There have always been plenty of laptops with very good Linux support.

Of the 3 laptops that I had during the last 15 years (before those I had used an Apple laptop, but then I have switched to Linux), on the first (a HP Compaq) and on the third (a Dell Precision), when I have installed Linux it just worked, while on the second (a Lenovo), I had to spend a couple of days until making everything work, mainly because it used NVIDIA Optimus, which required some workarounds, but after that it worked flawlessly. During these years I have also used Linux on various company laptops, always without problems.

At least some months might have to pass until a MacBook will be able to work under Asahi Linux as well as most laptops with Intel/AMD CPUs work already in the day when they are bought.

Re: Linux 5.19

#58

Post by OJFord »

nicce wrote: post #23
moonbas3 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first number being changed doesn't mean anything in particular, it's just like another release. Check the release post for 5.0: https://lkml.org/lkml/2019/3/3/236

So we can conclude, that the the big star of open source is not enforcing the child of open source :( Ref SemVer: https://semver.org/

That's one way of doing it, not the only way, and only tangentially related ('it can be useful to' sort of relationship) to open source.

Re: Linux 5.19

#59

Post by deathhand »

mort96 wrote: post #56
moonchrome wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I'm going to use a completely custom SoC + enthusiast driven driver support - with no support from manufacturer - to be my daily driver as a developer. Because I've got nothing better to do with my time than diagnose issues due to running a setup only 50 other people in the world use.

Most laptops don't use a completely custom SoC, but most of them have enthusiast driven driver support -- or worse, formerly-enthusiast driven driver support where nobody currently cares -- with no support from the manufacturer. And on less popular hardware; the most popular laptop models in the world are macs. If you want manufacturer support, you need to use macOS or Windows or one of the very limited selection of…

Dell, one of the largest manufacturers of laptops supports Linux and OSS. It's not some red headed step child anymore.

Re: Linux 5.19

#60

Post by Toutouxc »

moonchrome wrote: post #50
nicoburns wrote: post #21

Somewhat surprisingly, Linux support for Apple Silicon MacBooks seems to be shaping up to be better than that for pretty much any other laptop. The Asahi team don’t have support for everything yet (notably no GPU) but what they do have support for seems to be high quality, well integrated with Linux’s conventions, and upstreamed into the mainline kernel! How much other hardware can claim that? The Asahi developers ha…

Yeah I'm going to use a completely custom SoC + enthusiast driven driver support - with no support from manufacturer - to be my daily driver as a developer. Because I've got nothing better to do with my time than diagnose issues due to running a setup only 50 other people in the world use.

I'm not sure whether this is an argument for or against Asahi. The "50 other people in the world" statement is hardly true for a machine offered with a single SoC and zero customization options except RAM size and SSD.
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