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A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term

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Re: A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term

#51
post #21

"As an experiment, I went through a list of holiday weekend sales, and opened all the sites. They all — all, 100% — interrupted my attempt to give them some money." This is a good touchstone to use for "you've overoptimized your site, tone it back". I am also taken aback every time I'm on a site, I've got something in my shopping cart, I'm headed for the "check out" button, or I'm even on the checkout page , and some…

> I'm signalling interest in product X as hard as I can, and you've AB tested that this is a great time to jangle your keys over there instead?

If I may... I have seen data from a big retailer that shows any user that doesn't immediately purchase an item, is actually not that interested in the product on the screen. If a customer is going to buy something, they will do it promptly. Anyone else is just browsing.

YMMV, grain of salt, context dependent, etc, etc.

Re: A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term

#52
post #3

AB testing shows zero respect to your customers. It is the equivalent of testing your theories on lab rats. Instead try to improve the customer experience, make better products, improve customer service.

>Instead try to improve the customer experience, make better products, improve customer service.

Without a metric to say what is "better" and a method to measure it this is empty advice.

Re: A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling that bigotry is offensive to anyone that has been subjected to actual bigotry. You should be ashamed.

Quoted post unavailable.

You're being responded by a bunch of resentful engineers, but you're correct; it's the definition of bigotry.

Re: A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term

#54
post #51
post #21

"As an experiment, I went through a list of holiday weekend sales, and opened all the sites. They all — all, 100% — interrupted my attempt to give them some money." This is a good touchstone to use for "you've overoptimized your site, tone it back". I am also taken aback every time I'm on a site, I've got something in my shopping cart, I'm headed for the "check out" button, or I'm even on the checkout page , and some…

> I'm signalling interest in product X as hard as I can, and you've AB tested that this is a great time to jangle your keys over there instead? If I may... I have seen data from a big retailer that shows any user that doesn't immediately purchase an item, is actually not that interested in the product on the screen. If a customer is going to buy something, they will do it promptly. Anyone else is just browsing. YMMV,…

In this case, what I'm referring to is:

    1. Clicked on page.
    2. Took maybe 10 seconds to take in what is "above the fold".
    3. Scrolled down to see what else there is.
    4. BAM! Popup triggered by scrolling down.
While I understand what you're getting at, they do not yet have the info to know that I'm browsing or whatever. They were so excited about their stupid popup that they didn't even get that far.

I will say, generally, when I'm to the point that I'm entering credit card info, I've put up with it, but I have been chased off of sites by this use case before. Especially if that popup also crosses with some other popup and now I'm chasing down the tiny little 6pt light-grey-on-white little "x"s to click away the popups in the right order.

Actually, let me add that to my touchstone list. OF COURSE hiding the dismissal icon for the popup increases "engagement" with the popup. You don't even need to run a test for that, because what other result could it have? "We shrank the close icon, moved it to the lower right corner where nobody expects it, and made sure to kill the constrast even harder, and customers dismissed it 2.5 seconds more quickly on average"? Of course that's not possible. But... that's the wrong question! And AB testing is really good at answering the question you're asking, it has no mechanism in and of itself to see whether you're asking the right question. If you're getting down to this you've overoptimized.

Re: A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term

#55
I think the main issue is that testing is misused to create better version of something when it should be used to create knowledge.

So if you do testing and it gives you some kind of result, the crucial step is trying to understand what it really means, is there something we can learn from it.

Unfortunately, this is also the hard part that requires actual effort and intelligence and is difficult to scale -- and so is frequently skipped.

Re: A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

MBAs aren’t something people are born into or end up through no choice of their own. Bigotry against MBAs is impossible. It’s like being a loan shark or pimp. People actively choose that life and society talks poorly about them because of the social harm they bring. There’s nothing stopping someone from washing their hands of any of those things and being productive.

No post body was provided.

Re: A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term

#57
post #33

I've talked about this on HN but I'll say it again. A couple years ago, after being an Android fan for the better part of a decade, I finally bought myself an iPhone and pried myself away from Google's ecosystem wherever I could. And Apple didn't even need to do any work for me to make this decision. It was the years of abuse from Google that you experience when you decide to use a Google product or service. And a bi…

"To me, A/B testing means you don't respect your users. You see them as just one factor in your money machine that can be poked and prodded to optimize how much money you can squeeze out of them. "

Your perspective is extremely short-sighted. A/B testing can result in this type of behaviour but that's just poor A/B testing. Good A/B testing focuses on removing distractions from the experience and helping users derive more value from the product. Bad A/B testing tries to make things more discoverable, where discoverability is often just noise and distractions. Good A/B testing ensures that the money machine, as you put it, pays its dues to users by making the product experience delightful.

Re: A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term

#58
post #33

I've talked about this on HN but I'll say it again. A couple years ago, after being an Android fan for the better part of a decade, I finally bought myself an iPhone and pried myself away from Google's ecosystem wherever I could. And Apple didn't even need to do any work for me to make this decision. It was the years of abuse from Google that you experience when you decide to use a Google product or service. And a bi…

> means you don't respect your users.

I was just pontif- er, talking about this to someone, a couple of days ago.

I love the users of my products. Most of my products are free, and are carefully-crafted, highly-polished, complete deliverables, and I fret over how they are used -even if by a tiny number of end users-, like a nervous hen. I do what I do, out of love for the craft, and out of a genuine desire to make people's lives easier, through the technology I have at my disposal.

It is my belief that most tech companies despise their user base. Users are little more than cattle, to be fattened and slaughtered. "Caring about the user" means optimizing for "engagement," or keeping them trapped within their own ecosystem. John Oliver did a rant about this, recently[0]. It has nothing to do with actually caring about the user, or solving their problem. It is about harvesting users.

In fact, my discussion about this, came about, because someone wanted to keep users inside the app I'm writing, as opposed to linking them to a more familiar app, on their phone (for the record, it was for videoconferencing). Linking is a "no-brainer," as I can link out to dozens of installed apps, using the simple URL scheme method, built into iOS[1], and "keeping them in the app," would have required several months of extra work, polluting the app with megabytes of junk code, because I'd need to use SDKs, and also kill the ability to easily scale to add new clients (contrary to popular belief, Zoom is not the only videoconferencing option). It would also have possibly put us on the hook, legally, for what happened in those videoconferences.

[0] https://youtu.be/jXf04bhcjbg?t=638

[1] https://developer.apple.com/documentation/xcode/defining-a-c...

Re: A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term

#59
post #33

I've talked about this on HN but I'll say it again. A couple years ago, after being an Android fan for the better part of a decade, I finally bought myself an iPhone and pried myself away from Google's ecosystem wherever I could. And Apple didn't even need to do any work for me to make this decision. It was the years of abuse from Google that you experience when you decide to use a Google product or service. And a bi…

Recently they remove YouTube PiP on iOS. Then it came back to my device but not others in the family. We pay for YT Premium. This is beyond infurating

Re: A/B testing gets misused to juice metrics in the short term

#60
post #33

I've talked about this on HN but I'll say it again. A couple years ago, after being an Android fan for the better part of a decade, I finally bought myself an iPhone and pried myself away from Google's ecosystem wherever I could. And Apple didn't even need to do any work for me to make this decision. It was the years of abuse from Google that you experience when you decide to use a Google product or service. And a bi…

Depends on where A/B testing is used.

If it's something one-and-done (like different permutations of a signup flow to see what is easier for users), then I don't see the harm in it.

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