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Irwin – the protector of Lichess from all chess players villainous

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Re: Irwin – the protector of Lichess from all chess players villainous

#51

Post by momento »

mpol wrote: post #43
JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #22

I don’t understand what someone gets out of winning chess games by cheating. It would actually make me feel worse about myself.

In a sibling comment there is already a very adequate answer. To give the opposite answer, why you should not cheat. Chess is fun if you play against players of similar strengt. Mostly a score of around 50% will be what you get. If you have a 1400 rating, you can have fun games against 1400 players. If you cheat and go towards 2300 rating, you will still have a score of 50% against other 2300 players. But all the fun…

>Or simpler said, in a long gone past I got bored with playing Doom. I hunted down cheat codes and got bored even faster.

This is a life hack if ever you find yourself too distracted with a game (for me, Rimworld). Mod / cheat to the point of ruining the game, and you'll likely never play it again. That being said, I do not advocate doing this in multiplayer games.

Re: Irwin – the protector of Lichess from all chess players villainous

#52

Post by momento »

CrankyBear wrote: post #24

I love chess. At my absolute best, I had a over-the-board USCF rating of 2156. I never made it to master no matter how hard I tried. So, ticked off, I gave up serious play. Years go by and while I'm no where near as good these days, I started enjoying playing again. And, then I start running into people online who were clearly using engines instead of their own skills and wits. Now, I only pay with friends and over-t…

I have been playing daily for about two years now on Lichess and over-the-board whenever the opportunity presents itself. I find people who burn the clock when their game takes a turn for the worse far more frustrating than those who cheat their way to victory. At least with the cheaters, the game is over pretty quickly, so I can move onto a game which is actually enjoyable.

Re: Irwin – the protector of Lichess from all chess players villainous

#53

Post by ConstantVigil »

ok_dad wrote: post #50
JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #22

I don’t understand what someone gets out of winning chess games by cheating. It would actually make me feel worse about myself.

Same, and I don't get why cheaters don't just play in a "cheating league" where there are no anti-cheating rules or anything. What does winning do for someone when they didn't actually achieve mastery of the game?

I personally wouldn't have any issue with this. At that point it's all down to who's more clever in their ruses and cheats.

Re: Irwin – the protector of Lichess from all chess players villainous

#54

Post by ConstantVigil »

momento wrote: post #51
mpol wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a sibling comment there is already a very adequate answer. To give the opposite answer, why you should not cheat. Chess is fun if you play against players of similar strengt. Mostly a score of around 50% will be what you get. If you have a 1400 rating, you can have fun games against 1400 players. If you cheat and go towards 2300 rating, you will still have a score of 50% against other 2300 players. But all the fun…

>Or simpler said, in a long gone past I got bored with playing Doom. I hunted down cheat codes and got bored even faster. This is a life hack if ever you find yourself too distracted with a game (for me, Rimworld). Mod / cheat to the point of ruining the game, and you'll likely never play it again. That being said, I do not advocate doing this in multiplayer games.

The only game this doesn't seem to work on for me is Civilization; since I am often fixing the game now to work better or how it should have to begin with.

Re: Irwin – the protector of Lichess from all chess players villainous

#55

Post by toolslive »

colechristensen wrote: post #28
CSSer wrote: post #14

I’ve seen a video of Magnus Carlsen playing on Lichess before. Does Irwin ever accidentally flag him or people like him? Do these sorts of folks have to be verified in some fashion?

High level humans and chess engines play differently. You can see commentary on chess YouTube videos when they run across cheaters. Also the chess engines people use are accessible, you can compare what a suspected cheater does with what the cheater does and if they’re exactly the same consistently, you have a pretty strong signal. One of the bigger tells are strange moves that set up a many move series resulting in…

It's not that simple. I'm an amateur player (2200 at lichess) but there are plenty of situations where I simply _know_ the best variation. Plenty of chess players analyze their own games using an engine and then use their memory when they are confronted with the same position. The same with opening theory: when I'm using my opening preparation, I'm playing at GM level as these are just the moves played by GMs in that position, and I did not need to find/calculate them, I just know them.

Re: Irwin – the protector of Lichess from all chess players villainous

#56

Post by [deleted] »

CrankyBear wrote: post #24

I love chess. At my absolute best, I had a over-the-board USCF rating of 2156. I never made it to master no matter how hard I tried. So, ticked off, I gave up serious play. Years go by and while I'm no where near as good these days, I started enjoying playing again. And, then I start running into people online who were clearly using engines instead of their own skills and wits. Now, I only pay with friends and over-t…

[deleted]

Re: Irwin – the protector of Lichess from all chess players villainous

#57

Post by mwt »

CrankyBear wrote: post #24

I love chess. At my absolute best, I had a over-the-board USCF rating of 2156. I never made it to master no matter how hard I tried. So, ticked off, I gave up serious play. Years go by and while I'm no where near as good these days, I started enjoying playing again. And, then I start running into people online who were clearly using engines instead of their own skills and wits. Now, I only pay with friends and over-t…

What time controls do you play? Cheating is much more prevalent in rapid than blitz, with correspondence probably being the worst of all. It's unlucky for people who don't like speed chess.

The only solution to this problem I'm aware of is developing/becoming a part of a community of people you trust. Of course, that's hard and comes with plenty of limitations.

Lastly, please don't get your expectations up. This is a hugely unsolved problem on lichess and the history of its and chesscom's efforts do not inspire confidence. I noticed this repo has no updates in the past three years, during which lichess has maintained its reputation of having tons of cheaters. Chesscom has a team and probably more tools (proprietary, larger company, etc.) but the best case scenario still involves cheaters getting several games in, wasting your time along the way.

Re: Irwin – the protector of Lichess from all chess players villainous

#58

Post by mwt »

I see a lot of comments about the general topic, but none on the actual tool, which appears to have no (public-facing) updates in about three years. Presumably it could be a tool that incrementally improves over time with the explosion of data lichess has, but surely there would be a single commit since 2019. Do we know that this is what's actually running on lichess's backend today?

Re: Irwin – the protector of Lichess from all chess players villainous

#59

Post by xh-dude »

kelnos wrote: post #40
hgazx wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose that only completely newbie cheaters would think of taking the same amount of time to make each move. It’s like the first rule of pretending to be a human: add a random delay to all of your actions.

A random delay is also a tell, though. An obvious move shouldn't take 15 seconds, but if that's what the random delay for that move is, that looks suspicious. A more difficult move shouldn't take only 3 seconds, but if that's what the random delay for that move is, that also looks suspicious.

Definitely, random time is adding no correlation where it would count. Move time is an easily captured psychometric observation, the clever bit is that it’s intermingled with automated chess analysis.

Feels like there could be a lot of surprising inferences to think about here … just a few quick thoughts - how long does someone pause after a blunder, how does one react to unpredictable moves. Can definitely imagine AI being of significant utility here.

Re: Irwin – the protector of Lichess from all chess players villainous

#60

Post by pgwhalen »

timetraveller26 wrote: post #15
CSSer wrote: post #14

I’ve seen a video of Magnus Carlsen playing on Lichess before. Does Irwin ever accidentally flag him or people like him? Do these sorts of folks have to be verified in some fashion?

Not lichess, but Alireza Firouzja (World Rank #3) was banned from chess.com when he was younger. It was some time ago so probably their cheat engine detection, and also lichess's should give less false positives.

My understanding is that that was not about his actual play, but instead about his rapid rise in rating.
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