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Is the United States Exceptional?

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Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#51

Post by Tainnor »

starkd wrote: post #5

This is a common misunderstanding of the meaning of the word 'exceptional'. The origins of the phrase "American exceptionalism" had nothing to do with greatness or thinking one country is better than another. It is exceptional only in that the country was concieved as an exception to the rule of where its power ultimately comes from. The normal foundation for the state was upon a divinely anointed monarchy. America w…

There are a number of examples of non-monarchies that existed before the US did, such as Switzerland or the United Provinces, and at least the former had some elements of democracy built in early on (Landsgemeinde).

Undoubtedly, the American Revolution was huge and created something novel, but it's not like it all happened in a vacuum.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#52

Post by cat_plus_plus »

palmetieri2000 wrote: post #14

The logic of "The US is the greatest if you likes X things and bad if you prefer Y" is poor because it can be applied to anything. Colombia during Pablo Escobar's time was probably considered pretty great if you were a Narco Trafficker. The article entirely misses the problem non-US people have with the US faffing on about greatness or its exceptionality. Which is that individuals from the US seem to see this as an i…

US citizens contribute to US greatness by continuing to accept values such as free speech, free market, personal responsibility and limited government. Which in turns drives economic and cultural innovation and provides sufficient tax revenue to pay for defense of other countries that would otherwise be taken over. Many Australian citizens would not have accepted higher risk from COVID in exchange for greater personal freedom for example. Yet without great freedom, great innovation like Silicon Valley is impossible

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#53

Post by s1artibartfast »

mikkergp wrote: post #15

Can you really divorce greatness from goodness? I mean you can, but the author seems to go back and forth in how he places value on bigness. The sentiment that we have the most research institutions does not seem to be presented as valueless, and yet we also talk about the replicability crisis in science. McDonald’s is the largest restaurant chain in the world, does that mean American cuisine is the greatest? I think…

I think you absolutely can divorce greatness from goodness. Think of Genghis Kahn, Stalin, Alexander the Great, and even Hitler.

These are humans who have had an outsized impact on the course of humanity.

Perhaps similar historical events would have come about with a different person, but they were the human that made massively impactful decisions. Their personal whims and experience decided the fate of large portions of the world.

They had a great impact. If that is not the same as greatness, perhaps we need an alternative term to describe great impact without moral connotation.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#54

Post by snake_plissken »

So there are a number ways in which people define the phrase "American Exceptionalism". I didn't realize there was a debate about it until the phrase became part of the popular vernacular over the past, 5 years?

All this time I've been stumbling around thinking it was our ability to run twin deficits (trade and budget) for like 40 years, without any appreciable increase in Treasury yields.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#55

Post by srvmshr »

mikkergp wrote: post #37
srvmshr wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. The reasons where US shines & is able to draw talent is probably several of these: * US is absolutely the leader in innovation. No doubts about it. * Champion of democracy. The US political system & constitution has inspired a lot of other countries. Its a very immaculately drawn political system built on checks & balances * High degree of choices to an individual to shape his life * High degree of demographic…

How would you measure that the US is the leader in innovation. US News says Japan: https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/rankings/innovati... . World Intellectual Property Organization says Switzerland: https://www.wipo.int/pressroom/en/articles/2021/article_0008... Bloomberg says South Korea: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-03/south-kor...

If you ask my personal opinion/ experience, I would factor 3 things

1. The presence of top research institutions across a wide spectrum of science & technology.

2. The footprint of this research in reputable publications & conferences.

3. The amount of capital investment to bring ideas to products.

If we consider this practical yardstick - US is ahead by a fair margin to any other country.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#56

Post by yongjik »

starkd wrote: post #5

This is a common misunderstanding of the meaning of the word 'exceptional'. The origins of the phrase "American exceptionalism" had nothing to do with greatness or thinking one country is better than another. It is exceptional only in that the country was concieved as an exception to the rule of where its power ultimately comes from. The normal foundation for the state was upon a divinely anointed monarchy. America w…

The idea was exceptional (and revolutionary) in 1776, but it's 2022 now. Practically every country has a constitution stating that its power derives from the people, and a number of countries do make good on that promise.

If anything, what's exceptional about America is how its citizens are treating fossilized details of a 246-year-old system as critically important, conveniently ignoring that America's founding fathers couldn't foresee everything, and that dozens of other democratic countries function without these details just fine.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#57

Post by Tainnor »

srvmshr wrote: post #28
throwaway5959 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, now do positives.

Sure. The reasons where US shines & is able to draw talent is probably several of these: * US is absolutely the leader in innovation. No doubts about it. * Champion of democracy. The US political system & constitution has inspired a lot of other countries. Its a very immaculately drawn political system built on checks & balances * High degree of choices to an individual to shape his life * High degree of demographic…

"Champion of democracy" when it suits them. The US was responsible for installing Pinochet, the Mujahedeen, possibly the Taliban, ...

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#58

Post by bitshiftfaced »

oblio wrote: post #9
starkd wrote: post #5

This is a common misunderstanding of the meaning of the word 'exceptional'. The origins of the phrase "American exceptionalism" had nothing to do with greatness or thinking one country is better than another. It is exceptional only in that the country was concieved as an exception to the rule of where its power ultimately comes from. The normal foundation for the state was upon a divinely anointed monarchy. America w…

The thing is, the common misunderstanding is one of the core American tenets. It's one of the core American myths which is directly transmitted through American education, and the vast majority of Americans believe it. Even those that say they don't will recoil when you disprove or contest some key aspects, it's a very ingrained idea. Everyone wants to be part of an exceptional nation because then there's a chance th…

The "misunderstanding" that the parent poster was referring to was the meaning of "exceptionalism."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the misunderstanding that you seem to be referring to is whether or not the nation actually is the thing that people misunderstood exceptionalism to mean, which is "great," "superior," etc. That's more of an opinion, so I wouldn't say "misunderstanding" is the right word for it.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#59

Post by ncmncm »

zmmmmm wrote: post #24

I wonder how many of the conclusions would change if the EU is considered as a "country"? Which is to say, it's a little bit of a definitional problem around what the word "country" actually means. The US, being a federalist collection of semi-autonomous states is sort of a hybrid country. There are some clear aspects (a single military, federal laws, a common currency, a commonly elected president). But then there a…

Historians distinguish "nation", "state", and "country". The US is a State, but not a nation, and not a country. EU approaches the status of a State, but also neither of the others.

Re: Is the United States Exceptional?

#60

Post by ghufran_syed »

yongjik wrote: post #56
starkd wrote: post #5

This is a common misunderstanding of the meaning of the word 'exceptional'. The origins of the phrase "American exceptionalism" had nothing to do with greatness or thinking one country is better than another. It is exceptional only in that the country was concieved as an exception to the rule of where its power ultimately comes from. The normal foundation for the state was upon a divinely anointed monarchy. America w…

The idea was exceptional (and revolutionary) in 1776, but it's 2022 now. Practically every country has a constitution stating that its power derives from the people, and a number of countries do make good on that promise. If anything, what's exceptional about America is how its citizens are treating fossilized details of a 246-year-old system as critically important, conveniently ignoring that America's founding fath…

“ Practically every country has a constitution stating that its power derives from the people, and a number of countries do make good on that promise.”

Interesting claim - how would you square that with, say, the fact that majorities of “the people” in the UK support the death penalty for child murderers, and yet both main political parties have conspired to ban the death penalty? Does “power deriving” from the people differ somehow from actually implementing policies that they want?

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/0...

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