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America Is in Denial

theatlantic.com

51–60 of 84 posts

Re: America Is in Denial

#51
Related: https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/338480/term-for-...

We have a completely bifurcated ontology. Just as one minority sees their other group as being left behind, another sees their other-group as having a now-completely false consciousness. Imo, we are alien tribes to one another, and I look at western democracies and see the same separation that precedes litigating a divorce. I can score points on people I disagree with all day, but I don't bother because those points are worthless and not redeemable for anything good in the world.

To expand that analogy, most divorces try to start as reasonable, but once you are actually free of one another in the separation, it becomes a war for the previously shared resources and custody, enabled and inflamed by people who get paid out of the shared pot either way, and any courtesy or civility is leveraged back as weakness. These differences become so irreconcilable that we have evolved a completely parallel court system to handle it. The whole process of litigating a divorce is debasing and shameful for everyone involved, and almost nobody gets out with their basic human dignity intact. It's a useful analogy because everywhere I have seen it, it's a microcosm of war.

What does a good outcome look like? In time the hostilities cool to where it's no longer an animal fight for survival. Typically in a divorce, women get the home and the kids, and men get some freedom to start another family, and some limited opportunity via visitation to guide their kids and help them become fully actualized people. Generally, the women go on to find new supportive companions, and the men move on and rebuild as best they can. This analogy I think is very close to the culture war divide, where, if we take it any deeper, it becomes just as much of a quagmire as who's right and wrong in a family dissolution as it is for red/blue, but it's useful to abstract it out with an analogy so we can look seriously at what I foresee we are very likely to be confronted with.

To me, Romney is like the sensitive ponytailed new friend who starts hanging around under the pretext of helping, but he's just another vulture circling a struggling relationship looking to make vulnerable people dependent on him. The cultural divide in America has always existed, but it has only really become dangerous because of carpet bagging opportunists who don't believe in truth whispering in the ears of the primary parties. People presenting themselves as centerists are usually just fluid and unprincipled, and by inserting themselves between mostly stable complementary sides, and by dissolving edges and boundaries, they create new distance that puts themselves in the middle. It makes them manipulative and dishonest brokers.

I am not a centerist, because I think our political differences are complimentary and mutually moderating forces that truly build one other and benefit us all. The proposal I would make would be that we agree to recognize that America has made good lives and a society together, and this attracts interlopers who would like a piece of what you have built together, and they use some very appealing and seductive techniques to try to lever themselves between you. They appeal to our feelings of outrage, pride, envy, aggrievement, and shame, among others. It's a very old trick, and it works in the microcosm as well as in the macro.

I live in a country where politicians preach togetherness and unity but always with themselves in the middle, and mainly spend their efforts trying shame anyone who isn't interested in their meddling as illiberal, oppressive and revanchist. If only we were as intolerant of their sleaze as we have become of each other, there might be a way to hold this thing together. If not, it will be sad, but I think we all know how this goes.

Re: America Is in Denial

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mitt Romney is the author, not Mitch.

Are there any practical differences between the two? They talk very differently but how do they vote?

Yes, there are practical differences between two completely different people. There is cynicism, and then there is uninformed doomerism. There are very good websites tracking voting records of senators - maybe you could start there if you really want to know.

Here's one - https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/mitt_romney/412841

Re: America Is in Denial

#55
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no borders in any commons by definition; that's exactly the tragedy of commons.

both clauses above are false. There are plenty of commons that come with borders, the most trivial of which would be a patch of land used for grazing livestock. Garrett Hardin himself has acknowledged that he made a mistake with the concept of "the tragedy of the commons". There is no such thing. Commons have all historically been carefully managed by a complex interlocking web of understandings, traditions, rules. T…

What I meant was, obviously, that commons are not internally divided, otherwise they would not be commons.

Yes, commons have historically been managed, or should I say coordinated [1], more or less explicitly, exactly so as to avoid the tragedy of unmanaged commons. The environmental awakening in the 20th century was a response to several tragedies of commons hitherto unmanaged, and these tragedies were partially mitigated by nation state level coordination. A couple of decades later humanity succeeded in solving the first truly global tragedy of commons in the history, the depletion of the ozone layer. But that was a relatively easy problem to solve compared to carbon emissions.

[1] https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/

Re: America Is in Denial

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there any practical differences between the two? They talk very differently but how do they vote?

Yes, there are practical differences between two completely different people. There is cynicism, and then there is uninformed doomerism. There are very good websites tracking voting records of senators - maybe you could start there if you really want to know. Here's one - https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/mitt_romney/412841

Do their voting records reveal them to be anything other than mainstream Republicans? I'll admit that Romney's votes to impeach the man whose endorsement he sought in 2012 were unusually bold,but I can't think of any effect he's had on his party. Quite the opposite actually - at one point Romney claimed he was pro choice, but he's clearly fallen in line. His evolution towards mainstream Republicanism also put him in the comical position of running against the "Romneycare" universal healthcare plan once Democrats adapted it into the Affordable Care Act or "Obamacare".

There's a reason that Romney, McConnell, and Trump share the same party, dysfunctional thought their relationship might be.

Re: America Is in Denial

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, there are practical differences between two completely different people. There is cynicism, and then there is uninformed doomerism. There are very good websites tracking voting records of senators - maybe you could start there if you really want to know. Here's one - https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/mitt_romney/412841

Do their voting records reveal them to be anything other than mainstream Republicans? I'll admit that Romney's votes to impeach the man whose endorsement he sought in 2012 were unusually bold,but I can't think of any effect he's had on his party. Quite the opposite actually - at one point Romney claimed he was pro choice, but he's clearly fallen in line. His evolution towards mainstream Republicanism also put him in…

You said it yourself - he was the only republican senator who voted for impeachment.

When he voted against the party - you say he had no effect on his party.

When he votes with the party - you say he has fallen in line.

What exactly is he supposed to do? No one person has the power to change the party.

I just appreciate someone, an individual, doing a good thing when they do it. This post is a good thing. The least I can do is express my gratitude for that good decision. This endless demonizing of every politician from a party X is what further entrenches tribalism. If every politician is rotten no matter what they do, do you think that leaves them with any incentive to serve a public that hates them either way? When people only see them as tribe members and not individuals, they will act that way.

Re: America Is in Denial

#60
post #7

> When entire countries fail to confront serious challenges, it doesn't end well. At least in the case of global warming, the US are in good company: the whole world is failing (some more, some less, but nevertheless all failing) to confront the challenge.

We're just exiting an ice age. The world is currently one of the coolest times its ever been.

you can downvote me but it's science.

https://www.climate.gov/news-features/climate-qa/whats-hotte...

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