Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

BMW F Series Gear Selector, Part Two: Breakthrough

projectgus.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 118 posts

Re: BMW F Series Gear Selector, Part Two: Breakthrough

#51

Post by themitigating »

paywallasinbeer wrote: post #33
themitigating wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mostly every component on modern cars uses the CAN bus for communication https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAN_bus Many third party companies have made accessories to read information or control devices using it. Cars also have a standard diagnostic port called the OBD2 which you can purchase $10 readers that use bluetooth with your phone. Cars may have much more electronics but with all the sensors it's very easy to kno…

It's important to note that just because a CEL is on for a sensor, it doesn't mean that sensor is bad and needs to be replaced. For example, it's possible for a camshaft position sensor to be on for a timing system that is out of sync. It would be a mistake to replace the cam sensor in that scenario. Shotgunning parts isn't always the answer...

It was a 2007 Honda Civic, the 3rd clutch pressure switch measures fluid pressure. P0847 was the code. This means the sensor was sending a voltage value below the acceptable range.

The car shifted fine, the fluid was at the proper level, and there were no noticeable driving issues. This would also not continuously read a low voltage reading while changing gears. This led me to believe it's the sensor, which is very inexpensive and easy to fix. The car is working perfectly now.

Re: BMW F Series Gear Selector, Part Two: Breakthrough

#52

Post by krallja »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #15
mike_pol wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate where you’re coming from but experiencing the joy of dual clutch automatics and their shifts in BMWs and Audis that I had the joy to diving might change your mind. The latency you mention is really not there. Admittedly I could not service it if it broke but aren’t cars consumables now?

> aren’t cars consumables now? Maybe if you're in the earning high-5 figures a year bracket in SF, but for regular people, a car is likely the most or second most expensive thing they own (second to a home). New cars is something for dual-earners and rich folk, for us regular people - and I am a high income earner - new cars, even on finance, is just not an option. (I'm currently driving a used 2009 Ford Focus, <200K…

> high-5 figures a year bracket in SF

Lower class?

Re: BMW F Series Gear Selector, Part Two: Breakthrough

#53

Post by Czarcasm »

bri3d wrote: post #39
spaceywilly wrote: post #30

This makes me realize how easy it would be to hack a car like this. All you would need to do is sneak into the car and plug in a low profile OBD reader-like device with a cellular modem, and you could send these messages from anywhere. Just with the information in these articles we now know how to spoof the shifter mechanism, I’m sure similar processes could be used to determine steering and throttle controls. All th…

This was true in the mid 2000s, but isn't true on most modern cars. Most modern cars have a Gateway module which sits between the OBD port and the Powertrain CAN busses which the OP is reverse engineering. These Gateway modules only allow specific diagnostics-related messages through to the various backing buses. Now, generally the security on the Gateway module itself isn't great, and diagnostic protocols also aren'…

What you can do instead, is slip under the car and splice into the wire harness that is running under the car to the transmission or differential.

The transmission controller and differential speed sensor (or even differential controller on some cars) will be post gateway on the CAN bus.

I've done this on GM vehicles to spoof different vehicle behaviors while evaluating traction control systems.

Re: BMW F Series Gear Selector, Part Two: Breakthrough

#54

Post by bonestamp2 »

BoorishBears wrote: post #45
CraigJPerry wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’re willing to pay for access (it’s cheap for rare / one off access) bmw provides their AOS portal. https://aos.bmwgroup.com/web/oss/start - you’ll need something like an “icom next” to connect the car but it’ll do e-sys with the ability to install the latest firmwares. Some stuff (quite limited though) is available through the car data api - i think most f-series and all g-series i think have telematics. I hav…

If you're comfortable with slightly shadier methods, there's "grey market" access to most BMW tools. With the F and G series ISTA is the "gold standard"

Can confirm. I paid a guy on a BMW forum about $100 for the vehicle interface, which is ethernet to a J1962 connector (aka "OBD II Port"). That also included the e-sys software (Windows only). A few years later I needed an update to the software and found a guy on ebay who charged me about $75. So, those might be some places to look for this kind of thing.

Re: BMW F Series Gear Selector, Part Two: Breakthrough

#55

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

spaceywilly wrote: post #30

This makes me realize how easy it would be to hack a car like this. All you would need to do is sneak into the car and plug in a low profile OBD reader-like device with a cellular modem, and you could send these messages from anywhere. Just with the information in these articles we now know how to spoof the shifter mechanism, I’m sure similar processes could be used to determine steering and throttle controls. All th…

If you wanted to kill someone, car bombs are even easier.

Re: BMW F Series Gear Selector, Part Two: Breakthrough

#56

Post by bonestamp2 »

bri3d wrote: post #39
spaceywilly wrote: post #30

This makes me realize how easy it would be to hack a car like this. All you would need to do is sneak into the car and plug in a low profile OBD reader-like device with a cellular modem, and you could send these messages from anywhere. Just with the information in these articles we now know how to spoof the shifter mechanism, I’m sure similar processes could be used to determine steering and throttle controls. All th…

This was true in the mid 2000s, but isn't true on most modern cars. Most modern cars have a Gateway module which sits between the OBD port and the Powertrain CAN busses which the OP is reverse engineering. These Gateway modules only allow specific diagnostics-related messages through to the various backing buses. Now, generally the security on the Gateway module itself isn't great, and diagnostic protocols also aren'…

I do consulting for one OEM and all of their new vehicles over the past couple of years use encrypted bus traffic. So, it is getting much harder for third party tools to communicate with anything that is not mandated by law (most things other than DTCs and Emissions related APIs).

The sole purpose is security. Trust me, the engineers don't want to introduce any more complexity than necessary, and that's why it has been so open for so long. But, in light of hackers exposing these security vulnerabilities, there is pressure to close them. I'm sure there will be conspiracy theories about making it harder to repair cars so you have to go to the dealer. But, that's also not true -- because of Massachusetts' right to repair laws, OEM tools are available to anyone (or any shop) that wants to pay for them (in and out of MA).

Re: BMW F Series Gear Selector, Part Two: Breakthrough

#57

Post by bonestamp2 »

brk wrote: post #47
asciimike wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2021 Tacoma Manual owner here (one of the reasons I got it). Gladiators and Broncos are also available with a manual!

What about your steering, braking, and throttle controls?

Throttle is definitely computerized.

Re: BMW F Series Gear Selector, Part Two: Breakthrough

#58

Post by bonestamp2 »

Nullabillity wrote: post #7
mike_pol wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate where you’re coming from but experiencing the joy of dual clutch automatics and their shifts in BMWs and Audis that I had the joy to diving might change your mind. The latency you mention is really not there. Admittedly I could not service it if it broke but aren’t cars consumables now?

In what deluded world are items that cost tens of thousands of dollars consumables?! > I appreciate where you’re coming from but experiencing the joy of dual clutch automatics and their shifts in BMWs and Audis that I had the joy to diving might change your mind. Yeah, no thanks. A good manual transmission is a core part of the driving experience.

> In what deluded world are items that cost tens of thousands of dollars consumables?

I don't think consumable is the right word, but I assume they meant in the sense that many cars are leased, so the drive never really owns a car -- they just "consume" cars as they move from lease to lease.

Re: BMW F Series Gear Selector, Part Two: Breakthrough

#59

Post by waiseristy »

hatware wrote: post #8

Neat how modern car systems turned into microservices.

It is interesting how it evolved that way. As individual components were computerized (ABS, TCS, TCM's, ECM's, etc.), there was no real point at which it made sense to centralized things.

Now, with the silicon shortages, and the ever increasing complexity of vehicle networks, I think things are going to hit a crossover point. Instead of a vehicle full of "microservices", we will probably see more vehicles with some centralized compute unit controlling dozens of sensors and "edge" processors.

It's impossible to fully centralize an automotive computer, but there is a lot of work that can be done to move away from "microservices" to something that is easier to define, develop, and validate

Re: BMW F Series Gear Selector, Part Two: Breakthrough

#60

Post by bri3d »

bonestamp2 wrote: post #56
bri3d wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was true in the mid 2000s, but isn't true on most modern cars. Most modern cars have a Gateway module which sits between the OBD port and the Powertrain CAN busses which the OP is reverse engineering. These Gateway modules only allow specific diagnostics-related messages through to the various backing buses. Now, generally the security on the Gateway module itself isn't great, and diagnostic protocols also aren'…

I do consulting for one OEM and all of their new vehicles over the past couple of years use encrypted bus traffic. So, it is getting much harder for third party tools to communicate with anything that is not mandated by law (most things other than DTCs and Emissions related APIs). The sole purpose is security. Trust me, the engineers don't want to introduce any more complexity than necessary, and that's why it has be…

> because of Massachusetts' right to repair laws, OEM tools are available to anyone (or any shop) that wants to pay for them (in and out of MA).

At a price that's meaningless to a hobbyist and steep for an independent shop, sure.

Also, the actual implementation of these rules has been stalled for years by Alliance for Automotive Innovation v. Healy.

Point me to where I can legally, in a "clean" way, download ODIS for VW, or INPA for BMW, or DAS for Mercedes, at a reasonable price for a hobbyist.

IMO the only reason that manufacturers aren't under even more pressure is that these tools are so widely pirated.

Post reply on HN