Unexpected solar weather is accelerating satellites' orbital decay • Hacker News Board

Re: Unexpected solar weather is accelerating satellites' orbital decay

#51

Post by BitwiseFool » Thu, Jun 23, 2022, 7:04 PM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #48

BitwiseFool wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the primary objection is that to the vast majority of people 'plummet' implies the satellite is suddenly and violently falling from the sky - it's the kind of word people would describe an airplane crash with. However unless the author happens to know a lot about orbital mechanics (or they've played Kerbal Space Program) they probably just picked an expressive word for the sake of a compelling article rather…

It's a dumb objection. A mission manager was quoted using the word "diving". It isn't the journalist but the nitpicking commentors who are clueless. The headline accurately enough conveys what is happening and the article articulates it well. Orbital mechanics isn't intuitive enough for there to be perfect fit words given human experience, human timescales, "plummet" is fine.

I don't see why it is a dumb objection. Word choice is important, especially for journalists trying to convey information to the general public and even more so when it comes to headlines - as the majority of people won't read the article to understand the nuance.

I genuinely think a decent number of people are going to envision a situation where satellites suddenly plunging out of orbit like they would in some big budget disaster movie. You are well within your right to tell them they are thinking of the word "plummeting" incorrectly but you are fighting an uphill battle. Technical and dictionary correctness has its place but to convey information properly people must consider the vernacular.

Re: Unexpected solar weather is accelerating satellites' orbital decay

#52

Post by colechristensen » Thu, Jun 23, 2022, 7:20 PM UTC

BitwiseFool wrote: post #51

colechristensen wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a dumb objection. A mission manager was quoted using the word "diving". It isn't the journalist but the nitpicking commentors who are clueless. The headline accurately enough conveys what is happening and the article articulates it well. Orbital mechanics isn't intuitive enough for there to be perfect fit words given human experience, human timescales, "plummet" is fine.

I don't see why it is a dumb objection. Word choice is important, especially for journalists trying to convey information to the general public and even more so when it comes to headlines - as the majority of people won't read the article to understand the nuance. I genuinely think a decent number of people are going to envision a situation where satellites suddenly plunging out of orbit like they would in some big b…

It’s dumb because it is based on the objector imagining what an uninformed reader would imagine and thinking that anything unlike mighty Thor smiting satellites out of the sky with lightning bolts would make the word “plummet” inappropriate.

Satellites are falling relatively very fast compared to usual and some of them have or soon will burn up in atmosphere as a result, it’s a headline, not a half sentence expected to grant a degree in astrodynamics.

Re: Unexpected solar weather is accelerating satellites' orbital decay

#53

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jun 23, 2022, 7:26 PM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #39

jaywalk wrote: post #2

Is the word "plummet" really appropriate here? They're talking about falling at a rate of 0.001mph, which is much faster than expected but hardly a "plummet."

Yes, orbit decay having gone up by a factor of ~10 is indeed plummeting. You park things in low earth orbit so that they don't stay up forever and indeed come down in reasonably small human-scale timeframes. Usually on the time scale of decades, sometimes more, sometimes less. If you designed a satellite to stay up for 10 years, it'll suddenly only be able to stay up a year, that's the scale of these things. Again it…

[deleted]

Re: Unexpected solar weather is accelerating satellites' orbital decay

#54

Post by teawrecks » Thu, Jun 23, 2022, 7:30 PM UTC

BitwiseFool wrote: post #51

colechristensen wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a dumb objection. A mission manager was quoted using the word "diving". It isn't the journalist but the nitpicking commentors who are clueless. The headline accurately enough conveys what is happening and the article articulates it well. Orbital mechanics isn't intuitive enough for there to be perfect fit words given human experience, human timescales, "plummet" is fine.

I don't see why it is a dumb objection. Word choice is important, especially for journalists trying to convey information to the general public and even more so when it comes to headlines - as the majority of people won't read the article to understand the nuance. I genuinely think a decent number of people are going to envision a situation where satellites suddenly plunging out of orbit like they would in some big b…

> I don't see why it is a dumb objection

Because we're now 5+ comments deep arguing semantics. You know the facts, I know the facts, we all know the facts, what do we disagree on?

Re: Unexpected solar weather is accelerating satellites' orbital decay

#55

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jun 23, 2022, 7:31 PM UTC

Aachen wrote: post #18

uranium wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. To space folks, that is plummeting. It's enough of a difference, and a surprise, to have a significant effect on business models.

It's a significant difference that has a real impact on the satellites. But we also don't say that airplanes plummet when landing or elevators when going down. To me at least, plummet signals it's a matter of seconds or, perhaps from great altitude, minutes until it hits the bottom. So to me, and that's knowing a thing or two about space, this title is just clickbait and not a good description of the phenomenon obser…

[deleted]

Re: Unexpected solar weather is accelerating satellites' orbital decay

#56

Post by furyofantares » Thu, Jun 23, 2022, 7:32 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #11

jaywalk wrote: post #2

Is the word "plummet" really appropriate here? They're talking about falling at a rate of 0.001mph, which is much faster than expected but hardly a "plummet."

Yeah, plummet is like straight down till it hits something. Given it's root is in "plumbum" it's not surprising and yes, this is used incorrectly. Not being prescriptive, but this usage is pretty misleading.

That's what's happening, right? It's just that space is curved by the earth

Re: Unexpected solar weather is accelerating satellites' orbital decay

#57

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jun 23, 2022, 7:35 PM UTC

andrewflnr wrote: post #33

not2b wrote: post #13

Too many HN threads just seem to be people arguing about the appropriateness of the title. The article addresses a significant and interesting issue that's going to have major negative effects on business models, as well as some positive effect on space junk. I think they did a decent job, at least for an article intended for the general public, and I'm glad I read it. And yes, the word "plummet" is an exaggeration.…

Misleading headlines are a constant act of sabotage on our ability to prioritize our information intake. I don't know if it really needs to be discussed every single time, but it is important enough to be recognized and discussed, and until we decide to get serious about rebelling or whatever, well, who's going to decide where the exact appropriate place is to discuss it? So basically as long as it keeps hurting, wer…

[deleted]

Re: Unexpected solar weather is accelerating satellites' orbital decay

#58

Post by orbital-decay » Thu, Jun 23, 2022, 7:36 PM UTC

BitwiseFool wrote: post #46

colechristensen wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, orbit decay having gone up by a factor of ~10 is indeed plummeting. You park things in low earth orbit so that they don't stay up forever and indeed come down in reasonably small human-scale timeframes. Usually on the time scale of decades, sometimes more, sometimes less. If you designed a satellite to stay up for 10 years, it'll suddenly only be able to stay up a year, that's the scale of these things. Again it…

I think the primary objection is that to the vast majority of people 'plummet' implies the satellite is suddenly and violently falling from the sky - it's the kind of word people would describe an airplane crash with. However unless the author happens to know a lot about orbital mechanics (or they've played Kerbal Space Program) they probably just picked an expressive word for the sake of a compelling article rather…

Sidenote: KSP is the worst way to build intuition in this particular case as it doesn't have any drag model in orbit, or even n-body simulation, so no orbital decay is possible there. Playing around with NASA's GMAT [0] or similar more comprehensive software is much more helpful to understand real-world orbital mechanics.

[0] https://sourceforge.net/projects/gmat/

Re: Unexpected solar weather is accelerating satellites' orbital decay

#59

Post by corrral » Thu, Jun 23, 2022, 7:39 PM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #48

BitwiseFool wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the primary objection is that to the vast majority of people 'plummet' implies the satellite is suddenly and violently falling from the sky - it's the kind of word people would describe an airplane crash with. However unless the author happens to know a lot about orbital mechanics (or they've played Kerbal Space Program) they probably just picked an expressive word for the sake of a compelling article rather…

It's a dumb objection. A mission manager was quoted using the word "diving". It isn't the journalist but the nitpicking commentors who are clueless. The headline accurately enough conveys what is happening and the article articulates it well. Orbital mechanics isn't intuitive enough for there to be perfect fit words given human experience, human timescales, "plummet" is fine.

Plummet implies a straight-line dead fall, or close to it. It derives from lead weights (hence the similarity to "plumber") attached to a line, used for sounding depth of water or for marking a straight vertical line. The "verbing" of that noun and its figurative use to describe falling appear to be quite recent developments—Webster's 1913 only lists a noun. I'd say it's the wrong word for this case, but then I'm an opponent of using slightly-similar words interchangeably, such that we effectively have fewer words to work with. However, I'm losing that fight anyway, so who cares I guess.

[EDIT] On reflection, this is even goofier than I thought at first, since the choice of lead for those applications is precisely because it's little affected by wind, and even fares better than most things against moving water, while this is entirely about something falling faster because of its interaction with air.

Re: Unexpected solar weather is accelerating satellites' orbital decay

#60

Post by dang » Thu, Jun 23, 2022, 7:41 PM UTC

jaywalk wrote: post #2

Is the word "plummet" really appropriate here? They're talking about falling at a rate of 0.001mph, which is much faster than expected but hardly a "plummet."

Alright you guys, they are no longer plummeting in the title above. Let's talk about the interesting bits now!