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3M’s PFAS Crisis Has Come to Europe

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Re: 3M’s PFAS Crisis Has Come to Europe

#51

It would be an interesting future historical study to see what caused more harm: -Manufacturing the best firefighting chemistry (e.g. military purchases for missile warehouses, resorts, apartments, etc.) -Using the chemistry to actually fight fires It might be a case where sometimes second best should have been the way to go, but it’s hard to know beforehand I imagine, especially in safety scenarios where people are…

At this point, we have an over abundance [edit: of evidence] that when we as humans do new science in pursuit of good, we tend to overlook the negative aspects. Chemical companies spend a fortune on development of the new chemical and rush it to market to recoup investments. We never spend enough time looking at the down side of these new chemicals even though we have all of the information we currently have that sho…

Great point.

It seems like we need everyone working together because it’s such a complicated game theory problem.

Is humanity’s goal to march forward with scientific discovery at the risk of inventing risky things?

Or is the goal to make people comfortable? (was going to say healthy, but I think that ship has sailed in the west where we are approaching 50% obesity with no foreseeable counter measure).

[insert other goals from key stakeholders]

E.g. if the civilian government said “we need the best X” but it also can’t by Y,Z,Q, etc. and the more qualifiers you add the less likely that there will ever be something new in the arena (which is good for corporations that rely regulatory capture).

Re: 3M’s PFAS Crisis Has Come to Europe

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When my mother moved in and we went on daily walks, she lost a pound a week for a year. Her entirely sedentary lifestyle (and that of most Americans I know) is a major factor for her obesity. Standing is now considered exercise it has gotten so bad. But people will blame anything instead of taking action, so…

I'm pretty sure daily walks (no heart rate elevation, not HIIT, no muscle being built, etc.) didn't contribute significantly to your mother's weight loss. Moving around is not a significant contributor to weight loss[1]. Diet is the most significant contributing factor to gaining or losing weight. Moving in with someone new, new environment, new dietary changes, etc. might've done significantly more. 1. https://www.n…

Well, since I was there, I can say that her diet was mostly unchanged.

I will add that the walks were around an hour to two to get 10k steps and over 4 miles.

I challenge anyone to walk an extra ~25 miles a week with no diet change to see if they gain weight.

Re: 3M’s PFAS Crisis Has Come to Europe

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When my mother moved in and we went on daily walks, she lost a pound a week for a year. Her entirely sedentary lifestyle (and that of most Americans I know) is a major factor for her obesity. Standing is now considered exercise it has gotten so bad. But people will blame anything instead of taking action, so…

I'm pretty sure daily walks (no heart rate elevation, not HIIT, no muscle being built, etc.) didn't contribute significantly to your mother's weight loss. Moving around is not a significant contributor to weight loss[1]. Diet is the most significant contributing factor to gaining or losing weight. Moving in with someone new, new environment, new dietary changes, etc. might've done significantly more. 1. https://www.n…

Depending on fitness level (cardio, muscle strength, physical weight) walking can very much be strenuous exercise.

Direct caloric burn, long term metabolism changes, etc. for a given activity vary based on the input fitness level of the person.

Calories in is the easiest levee to pull for rapid change as exercising enough for major direct calorie burn is challenging at the beginning. The biggest short term exercise impact is from activities that increase muscle mass as muscle takes calories to maintain thus boosting metabolism.

Re: 3M’s PFAS Crisis Has Come to Europe

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When my mother moved in and we went on daily walks, she lost a pound a week for a year. Her entirely sedentary lifestyle (and that of most Americans I know) is a major factor for her obesity. Standing is now considered exercise it has gotten so bad. But people will blame anything instead of taking action, so…

Just because a sedentary lifestyle is bad for your health, doesn't mean smoking is harmless. Do you know anything about these chemical? If so, please share. If not, well, ....

Smoking is an interesting example, Japan smokes a lot more and has less obesity and seems to have higher general health…

Re: 3M’s PFAS Crisis Has Come to Europe

#55
post #5

>PFOS—perfluorooctanesulfonic acid—is referred to as a forever chemical, because it accumulates in soil, rivers, and drinking water and is almost impossible to get rid of. She had about 300 micrograms of it per liter in her blood, more than 60 times the level recommended as safe today by the European Union. Almost impossible, but not impossible. It has been found that giving blood (and then throwing that blood away)…

Are you recommending bloodletting as a cure for some of the nastiest pollution ever created by humans? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodletting

Bloodletting as a psuedoscience is bad. Therapeutic phlebotomy is a modern medical procedure.

Re: 3M’s PFAS Crisis Has Come to Europe

#56

Nothing will change until there are prison sentences, and the very deliberate system of shielding managers and corporations from responsibility is changed. It was known for decades that Asbestos and cigarettes causes lung cancer, that adding lead to gasoline is a terrible idea, that burning oil warms the atmosphere. The truth was suppressed through intimidation, lawsuits and bribes. Regulatory agencies are corrupted…

Add to that the toxicity of DDT, many car companies using emission test defeat devices, and thousands more examples.

What's worse is that for demanding accountability for such crimes you get called "environmental extremist" or something similar.

Re: 3M’s PFAS Crisis Has Come to Europe

#57

Nothing will change until there are prison sentences, and the very deliberate system of shielding managers and corporations from responsibility is changed. It was known for decades that Asbestos and cigarettes causes lung cancer, that adding lead to gasoline is a terrible idea, that burning oil warms the atmosphere. The truth was suppressed through intimidation, lawsuits and bribes. Regulatory agencies are corrupted…

There are lots of countries with lots of governance models, yet none as far as I know would have proactively banned any of those things early on. I suspect that means there is a flip side we aren't seeing. It means there is a huge disadvantage to banning some probably harmful chemical. For example, if you were a small island and you banned imports of everything containing any PFAS, you'd end up in the technological s…

The huge disadvantage is many people dying because, in the long process of vetting a new chemical or drug, it was not available for use.

Re: 3M’s PFAS Crisis Has Come to Europe

#58
post #46

Nothing will change until there are prison sentences, and the very deliberate system of shielding managers and corporations from responsibility is changed. It was known for decades that Asbestos and cigarettes causes lung cancer, that adding lead to gasoline is a terrible idea, that burning oil warms the atmosphere. The truth was suppressed through intimidation, lawsuits and bribes. Regulatory agencies are corrupted…

I totally agree with you, but it should be noted that not all kinds of asbestos are harmful. One safe type is used today in apartment building with no measurable consequences.

There's no use for asbestos in residential without a safer substitute.

Re: 3M’s PFAS Crisis Has Come to Europe

#59

Nothing will change until there are prison sentences, and the very deliberate system of shielding managers and corporations from responsibility is changed. It was known for decades that Asbestos and cigarettes causes lung cancer, that adding lead to gasoline is a terrible idea, that burning oil warms the atmosphere. The truth was suppressed through intimidation, lawsuits and bribes. Regulatory agencies are corrupted…

I mean NO2 from diesel exhaust is provably reducing longevity i.e. killing people sooner, still no prison sentences happened for any of the heads in VW. [0] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal

Serious question: why people obsess over Volkswagen? Other companies are even worst offenders. See chart:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal

Re: 3M’s PFAS Crisis Has Come to Europe

#60

Nothing will change until there are prison sentences, and the very deliberate system of shielding managers and corporations from responsibility is changed. It was known for decades that Asbestos and cigarettes causes lung cancer, that adding lead to gasoline is a terrible idea, that burning oil warms the atmosphere. The truth was suppressed through intimidation, lawsuits and bribes. Regulatory agencies are corrupted…

There are lots of countries with lots of governance models, yet none as far as I know would have proactively banned any of those things early on. I suspect that means there is a flip side we aren't seeing. It means there is a huge disadvantage to banning some probably harmful chemical. For example, if you were a small island and you banned imports of everything containing any PFAS, you'd end up in the technological s…

That's a false dichotomy. There are many other alternatives other than toxic materials VS stone age.

Also we are way way beyond "probably harmful".

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