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California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

nytimes.com

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Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#51

Post by Siddarth1977 »

dathinab wrote: post #18
basisword wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It gives me hope that the left is. If the left shifts more central and becomes more palatable to centre right people than the far right, then the right also needs to shift.

but the left didn't shift left in a relevant degree, they are more right then most center parties in the EU. Its right which shifted so far right that it might seem the left shifted away. A lot of things coming from the republican party, of bring tolerated by the republican party on recent years are uncanily similar to how Hitler proceeded before he started mass murdering (like in the rethoric of speach and willingne…

If this is what you believe (and not just rhetoric you're employing to sway people that you know to be untrue) then maybe it's time to take a step back and widen your world view and broaden your sources of information.

It's of course always problematic to oversimplify the thousands of different issues and perspectives into simple "left vs right" or "conservative vs liberal" buckets, but overall, it's completely accurate to say that America has moved massively to the left, or alternatively, that liberals have been winning for decades.

The right-wing ideals of individual liberty & responsibility, of meritocracy and free choice have been completely obliterated from academia, media and public opinion. The entire narrative is owned and controlled by a left-wing view of race-based collective groups (which would have be class-based in Europe, but American left focuses more on race than class), along with an assumption that luck or privilege is the sole or at least primary driver of inequality.

On essentially every issue the left has not just won, but moved the goal posts of debate. You may just not notice it because you either agree with the moves or because which issues get focus aren't the ones you care about. The American left is doing little to solve climate change, pollution, affordability of middle class lifestyle, etc, but that's because they don't "really" care about those issues. They're winning on LGBTQ+, winning on race-based initiatives, winning on government-controlled access to healthcare, winning on federal power expanding and state power receding, winning on narrowing free speech, winning on reducing religious freedoms and winning on government-controlled land use, government-controlled economy, etc.

I was a left-wing radical in college. Without really changing my stances since then, I'm now a left-wing radical on only environmental issues but basically a centrist on others and occasionally on issues of free speech or free association it's only the right defending those freedoms.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#52

Post by peyton »

pmoriarty wrote: post #43
sudden_dystopia wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the left has gone so far left that everyone looks like they are far right comparatively. So by having the left come more towards the center, the whole political spectrum would shrink back towards the middle.

"the left has gone so far left that everyone looks like they are far right comparatively." When people say stuff like this I wonder what planet they're from. It's not like the US even has a viable Socialist party, never mind a Marxist or Communist one. I've never heard a Democrat call for the abolishment of private property or a revolution of the proletariat. In America, dreams of that sort died with end of the 60's…

Today’s focus on equity indeed fits many, many definitions of far left: radical abolition of class. But if you restrict far left to abolishing private property, then sure.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#53

Post by Auracle »

seizethegdgap wrote: post #42
sudden_dystopia wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the left has gone so far left that everyone looks like they are far right comparatively. So by having the left come more towards the center, the whole political spectrum would shrink back towards the middle.

Abortion is about to become illegal in almost half the country, police departments overwhelmingly haven't been defunded, congress didn't pass an infrastructure bill, the federal minimum wage is still $7.25, there's still been no repercussions for 1/6, trans kids can't get proper healthcare in 2 republican States (and growing), there's no universal healthcare or student debt forgiveness, and there's still no meaningfu…

>Abortion is about to become illegal in almost half the country

A Supreme Court decision reversing one that was dubiously made in the first place. It'll be interesting to see how many of those states will roll back abortion from being illegal to something more reasonable.

>Police departments overwhelmingly haven't been defunded

An incredibly far left idea

>Congress didn't pass an infrastructure bill

It's pretty far left to say we need to spend trillions on new projects at a time with high inflation and a shortage of workers

>The federal minimum wage is still $7.25

Which we found out is largely inconsequential in a time when McDonalds is advertising $17 an hour.

>There's still been no repercussions for 1/6

Some people are going to prison for the riot. What other repercussions should there be?

>Trans kids can't get proper healthcare in 2 republican States (and growing)

Alternatively, two states are protecting children before they have the capacity to make completely life altering decisions.

>There's no universal healthcare or student debt forgiveness

Student debt forgiveness is an incredibly far left idea

>And there's still no meaningful gun reform

Most of things you listed, like this one, are things that the left wants shifted to the left. The whole point is that the left has shifted left, and pointing out that things that they want haven't been accomplished doesn't dispute that. It just means the right has been fighting to maintain the status quo - and certainly doesn't show that they've shifted right.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#54

Post by ahoy »

ModernMech wrote: post #45
rossdavidh wrote: post #37

I think Democrats at the national level underestimate how much inner-city Democratic mayors, city councils, school boards, and district attorneys determine their image as a party. If suburban swing voters, when commuting into the city center to work, shop, go to a show, etc. see homeless encampments and vacant storefronts, it's going to hit the Democrats' image as a party that can run things. Republicans in city gove…

Do Republican run jurisdictions not have a problem with homelessness, or is it just less visible? Are they shifting their homeless burden to places like cities with more programs and support for homelessness? Because I've never actually heard a Republican plan for dealing with homelessness that doesn't involve criminalizing it and sweeping it under the rug where no one can see it.

To be fair, that's largely the democratic plan too. See NYC/LA/etc. D's and R's alike hate the homeless.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#55

Post by dathinab »

worker_person wrote: post #32
dathinab wrote: post #11

war on crime causes crime, draconic penalties do not prevent or even majorly reduce crime if a there is a long list of crime causing things which are not fixed. Like in no specific order: poverty, bleak future, failed "common" education system, state supported/tolerated exploition of citizens, failing police, falling justice system (if you ask they are meant to protect citizens), systematic deep rooted discrimination…

100% false. If there are no consequences, then a percentage of the population will go nuts. I've had a few young kids ask about going to California to get toys since you don't have to pay for them there. In their mind it's a great deal. Explaining that it's wrong even though you get away with it is awkward.

There is a difference between no consequences and realizing that the problems are not solved with draconian consequences

The problems need solutions which are not fully but to a non-small degree independent of classical "crime fighting" decisions.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#56

Post by fuzzer37 »

rossdavidh wrote: post #37

I think Democrats at the national level underestimate how much inner-city Democratic mayors, city councils, school boards, and district attorneys determine their image as a party. If suburban swing voters, when commuting into the city center to work, shop, go to a show, etc. see homeless encampments and vacant storefronts, it's going to hit the Democrats' image as a party that can run things. Republicans in city gove…

Ah yes, the myth of the swing voter.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#57

Post by mountainriver »

pmoriarty wrote: post #43
sudden_dystopia wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the left has gone so far left that everyone looks like they are far right comparatively. So by having the left come more towards the center, the whole political spectrum would shrink back towards the middle.

"the left has gone so far left that everyone looks like they are far right comparatively." When people say stuff like this I wonder what planet they're from. It's not like the US even has a viable Socialist party, never mind a Marxist or Communist one. I've never heard a Democrat call for the abolishment of private property or a revolution of the proletariat. In America, dreams of that sort died with end of the 60's…

That’s really just not true overall. Bernie Sanders policies would be considered far left by even European standards, and he almost won the nomination. The abortion and social justice positions are also far left compared to Europe

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#58

Post by kansface »

beebmam wrote: post #20
avalys wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Statistics are not reality. Crime stats fell because the DA was so tolerant of crime, people stopped bothering to report anything but the most serious ones.

Is there evidence for this claim?

I think this is normally a good question, but honestly, in what world would I care about numbers when there is a lady screaming 'Help'/'Asshole' for hours at a time at my door, a homeless guy running a bicycle chop shop in front of my building (he uses a 3' stretch of pipe to deconstruct bikes!), people breaking into the building (taking both packages and keys!), the outside of the building is turned into a communal toilet, the local Walgreens gets looted out of business, and people get stabbed uncomfortably often just around the corner? That was my somewhat unfettered, actual pandemic experience in Hayes Valley turned Tenderloin. You could claim that's not entirely the fault of the DA, probably with merit, too, but I just don't care all the same. If the DA claims no agency, takes no responsibility for any of this mess, and the plan is even more of the same thing, whats the point?

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#59

Post by aerostable_slug »

seizethegdgap wrote: post #42
sudden_dystopia wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the left has gone so far left that everyone looks like they are far right comparatively. So by having the left come more towards the center, the whole political spectrum would shrink back towards the middle.

Abortion is about to become illegal in almost half the country, police departments overwhelmingly haven't been defunded, congress didn't pass an infrastructure bill, the federal minimum wage is still $7.25, there's still been no repercussions for 1/6, trans kids can't get proper healthcare in 2 republican States (and growing), there's no universal healthcare or student debt forgiveness, and there's still no meaningfu…

Drag Queen Story Hour is pretty far left. So are our abortion policies.

OTOH, Biden is the one increasing police budgets. Maybe the party is "spreading" on the spectrum?

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#60

Post by heretogetout »

elefanten wrote: post #36
beebmam wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there evidence for this claim?

The pervasive testimony from local law enforcement that the DA's office won't even respond about prosecuting most offenses. Not just minor offenses -- theft, burglaries, assault and at least one manslaughter/homicide case. The second hand testimony from residents and business owners saying the police are telling them not to expect them to be able to prosecute anyone. But there's also the evidence of what Boudin openl…

Testimony from law enforcement should be dismissed out of hand (including in court) without hard evidence backing it up. The second hand testimony could just mean the police are acting like children, we don't know.
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