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Ten years of trying to meditate

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Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#51

Post by titanomachy »

sabellito wrote: post #26
bowsamic wrote: post #9

My biggest advice for anyone is to not ignore the traditional advice. Secular meditation practises based on Buddhist meditation take the practise out of its context in a quick and forceful way. Buddhism has had 2500 years to slowly develop and work out what works and what does not. It is quite dangerous to take it and call the parts that do not immediately appeal to the secular western mind, like devotion, worship, c…

I'm going to call bs on your claim that you "personally know two people who went into severe psychosis and depression". Since we're in "my personal experience"-land, I've been meditating and have been around people who meditate daily for 26 years. Never seen or heard about anything close to what you describe.

I believe it, I personally experienced something like a psychotic episode while on a meditation retreat. Also a panic attack, a few hours before that. No prior history of panic attacks or psychosis.

I actually think that some of the benefits of meditation are adjacent to psychosis, in a way: as you get closer to the "insight" that is the intended result of Buddhist meditation, you are also flirting with losing your grip on reality.

In my case, it went fine. I resolved the experience and integrated it. But I could see how it might go the other way for some.

Professor Britton at Brown has made a career of studying these kinds of experiences, plenty of examples here:

https://www.brown.edu/research/labs/britton/research/varieti...

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#52

Post by taeric »

bowsamic wrote: post #40
taeric wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know. This still feels heavy in the propaganda realm. Which... to be clear, propaganda works. Turns out, telling people directly how and what to feel is more effective than makes sense. That is, looking at it as 2500 years of successfully developing what works is hiding a lot of the failure that has accompanied things in that same time span. Is akin to saying that the religions that avoid certain foods are on…

It’s very new to us, why would we assume we have a perfect system for understanding it? It isn’t a toy to play with. Far more scientific research is needed before it’s safe to do in a secular context.

Isn't this true of all frames? I feel that I could claim the same for science and religion as things, as well.

Note that I'm fine pushing for caution on folks wanting to take up any practice. This would go as well for folks that think a running practice will help them. Maybe. At best.

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#53

Post by greenglass »

bowsamic wrote: post #9

My biggest advice for anyone is to not ignore the traditional advice. Secular meditation practises based on Buddhist meditation take the practise out of its context in a quick and forceful way. Buddhism has had 2500 years to slowly develop and work out what works and what does not. It is quite dangerous to take it and call the parts that do not immediately appeal to the secular western mind, like devotion, worship, c…

The people who have popularized meditation in the west, Jack Kornfield, Sharon Salzburg, Joseph Goldstein, zinn, all come at it from the Buddhist tradition.

It’s a useful approach for treating various medical problems. Anything, even nothing, can cause psychosis.

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#54

Post by bowsamic »

taeric wrote: post #52
bowsamic wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s very new to us, why would we assume we have a perfect system for understanding it? It isn’t a toy to play with. Far more scientific research is needed before it’s safe to do in a secular context.

Isn't this true of all frames? I feel that I could claim the same for science and religion as things, as well. Note that I'm fine pushing for caution on folks wanting to take up any practice. This would go as well for folks that think a running practice will help them. Maybe. At best.

I think we should treat it like a psychedelic treatment

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#55

Post by bowsamic »

greenglass wrote: post #53
bowsamic wrote: post #9

My biggest advice for anyone is to not ignore the traditional advice. Secular meditation practises based on Buddhist meditation take the practise out of its context in a quick and forceful way. Buddhism has had 2500 years to slowly develop and work out what works and what does not. It is quite dangerous to take it and call the parts that do not immediately appeal to the secular western mind, like devotion, worship, c…

The people who have popularized meditation in the west, Jack Kornfield, Sharon Salzburg, Joseph Goldstein, zinn, all come at it from the Buddhist tradition. It’s a useful approach for treating various medical problems. Anything, even nothing, can cause psychosis.

This is minimising the risks, and those people you mention, while being from traditional backgrounds, afaik do not teach traditional practises, so they have effectively removed the wider framework

Meditation is not “as safe as sitting down”. It has strong life altering risks

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#56

Post by bowsamic »

titanomachy wrote: post #51
sabellito wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to call bs on your claim that you "personally know two people who went into severe psychosis and depression". Since we're in "my personal experience"-land, I've been meditating and have been around people who meditate daily for 26 years. Never seen or heard about anything close to what you describe.

I believe it, I personally experienced something like a psychotic episode while on a meditation retreat. Also a panic attack, a few hours before that. No prior history of panic attacks or psychosis. I actually think that some of the benefits of meditation are adjacent to psychosis, in a way: as you get closer to the "insight" that is the intended result of Buddhist meditation, you are also flirting with losing your g…

Yes really the whole point of it is to let go of your grip on reality

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#57

Post by rebelos »

titanomachy wrote: post #35

I was in a similar rut for a while. I had a sense that meditation could help me deal with various mental health issues, but I couldn't do it: I just spent my sessions being bored and annoyed with myself. I tried picking it up many times but never got momentum. After a few years of this I finally bit the bullet and went on a 10-day meditation retreat. ~12 hours a day of meditating, no books or talking or exercise. The…

What was your level of practice before going into the retreat? Did you go in 'cold'? What would you recommend for people who are considering it?

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#58

Post by abeppu »

So for 10 years, the author read some books, occasionally did sitting meditation but only briefly and not getting anywhere, took no classes, got guidance from no teachers, did no retreats, etc, and ends the piece with a teaser for the next article/email.

I feel like if someone wrote that they wanted to understand computation, and over the course of 10 years they read Godel Escher Bach and some Smullyan puzzles, and occasionally pulled up a python interpreter to play with stuff for minutes at a time, and each time got bored and gave up, we wouldn't find it especially interesting that they hadn't reached any deep and satisfying understanding.

I'd like to be a better cook, and I read through Salt Fat Acid Heat and sometimes I try to make something more planned and effortful than I normally would, but over the past 10 years I have taken no cooking classes, made only sporadic efforts to learn more, and so I'm not surprised that my ability in the kitchen hasn't changed much.

What you get out of an endeavor is related to what you put in. But if you have difficulty sticking with it, maybe introduce stuff in your life that helps you maintain that effort? My meditation practice was most consistent when I was doing a class that met weekly. In addition to guidance and instruction, there was always some component of sharing or discussing experiences, asking questions, etc. Even if it's not a "sangha" per se, having a regular, structured, social interaction attached to your practice can really help. As can having a more knowledgeable teacher, rather than just a pile of books.

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#59

Post by taylodl »

bowsamic wrote: post #9

My biggest advice for anyone is to not ignore the traditional advice. Secular meditation practises based on Buddhist meditation take the practise out of its context in a quick and forceful way. Buddhism has had 2500 years to slowly develop and work out what works and what does not. It is quite dangerous to take it and call the parts that do not immediately appeal to the secular western mind, like devotion, worship, c…

I would argue Zen Buddhism is secular, so I'm not quite sure the distinction you're trying to make.

Re: Ten years of trying to meditate

#60

Post by throwaway7865 »

ksd482 wrote: post #16
weldedtogether wrote: post #13

Siddhartha is a fantastic book, it changed how I look at pain, love, and everything in-between. I recommend even if you're like me and don't want to meditate to read Siddhartha, it helped me step out of my own headspace into a way of thinking that actively tries to step further and further out from myself.

Can you please provide a link to the book? I searched and there seem to be several of them with the same name. Thanks!

It’s also available for free on Gutenberg:

https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2500

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