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Epic is asking a court to stop Google from yanking Bandcamp off the Play Store

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Re: Epic is asking a court to stop Google from yanking Bandcamp off the Play Store

#51

Post by robonerd »

amelius wrote: post #24
bko wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bandcamp is using their own billing system, bypassing Google's cut. Every app could do this and cut Google out all together. An app could just let you download the app, pay some amount when you're in the app which would unlock the functionality. I don't think its unreasonable for Google to have a problem with this. They want to get the reach of the app store, and make money off it, without paying a cut to the host li…

In the 80s and 90s you could buy software running on Windows, where the vendor of the software didn't pay anything to Microsoft; in fact, I'm sure Microsoft was happy with them supporting and increasing the strength of their platform. Why does this have to change now? Why does the platform need a cut?

> Why does the platform need a cut?

To meet shareholder expectations of continuous growth.

Re: Epic is asking a court to stop Google from yanking Bandcamp off the Play Store

#52

Post by thisarticle »

belltaco wrote: post #45
thisarticle wrote: post #41

More and more it looks like Epic just wants access to these major platforms and wants other companies and developers to pay for it.

Is that what happens when a Windows program is not put on Windows Store? Thieves!

They’re free to distribute an APK like everyone else.

Re: Epic is asking a court to stop Google from yanking Bandcamp off the Play Store

#53

Post by Arainach »

chongli wrote: post #47
mattmcknight wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you bought software at a retail store, the vendor didn't get the full retail price. It's not the platform getting a cut, it's the store. What we need to ensure is that platforms can't force you into their store.

As far back as the 80’s there were means of distributing software without paying a retailer a commission on every sale. Shareware [1] was one such model. The software was distributed by users copying it from floppy to floppy, handing it out at user group meetings, conferences, even on the school playground. It was later included in large CD-ROM collections packaged with computer magazines. The point is that you could…

You as the Shareware author were paying for the creation of those discs and their distribution. If you had an FTP server, you paid for the bandwidth.

Epic isn't doing that. Epic wants access to Google's customers, with Google paying all the bills, without paying Google anything. Despite the fact that Android allows them to run their own app store or sideload apps.

Re: Epic is asking a court to stop Google from yanking Bandcamp off the Play Store

#54

Post by Mk2000 »

warning26 wrote: post #6

While I generally agree with Epic's positions, it seems like a bit of a stretch here, considering that Android allows both sideloading and alternative app stores. Unlike on iOS, there's nothing on Android stopping Bandcamp from releasing a standalone sideloadable app with any payment system they desire.

But those "alternatives app stores" can never do the things Play Store can, like automatic installing/updating apps without user needing to click "Install" for each one. (which gets quite annoying)

Google could've made it possible but did not, that's monopoly.

Re: Epic is asking a court to stop Google from yanking Bandcamp off the Play Store

#56

Post by ydlr »

novok wrote: post #46
bko wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bandcamp is using their own billing system, bypassing Google's cut. Every app could do this and cut Google out all together. An app could just let you download the app, pay some amount when you're in the app which would unlock the functionality. I don't think its unreasonable for Google to have a problem with this. They want to get the reach of the app store, and make money off it, without paying a cut to the host li…

Google also makes google chrome and doesn't get a single cent off of transactions done on that web browser too.

A horrible injustice that will one day be corrected. It just takes a couple generations to change expectations.

Re: Epic is asking a court to stop Google from yanking Bandcamp off the Play Store

#57

Post by AnssiH »

gigatexal wrote: post #36
PeterisP wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Antitrust rules apply for abuse of dominant market power (which Google certainly has) even if theoretical alternatives exist. It does not matter that it's not literally a monopoly, as that is not the legal bar that needs to be passed for Google to be limited in what they can and can't do.

But it does matter what the law says. If they’re not a monopoly in the eyes of the law what can a judge do?

The parent meant that antitrust laws usually apply even if there is no monopoly in the strictest possible sense (i.e. literally no competitors). A dominant market position is enough.

Re: Epic is asking a court to stop Google from yanking Bandcamp off the Play Store

#58

Post by RC_ITR »

PeterisP wrote: post #11
warning26 wrote: post #6

While I generally agree with Epic's positions, it seems like a bit of a stretch here, considering that Android allows both sideloading and alternative app stores. Unlike on iOS, there's nothing on Android stopping Bandcamp from releasing a standalone sideloadable app with any payment system they desire.

Antitrust rules apply for abuse of dominant market power (which Google certainly has) even if theoretical alternatives exist. It does not matter that it's not literally a monopoly, as that is not the legal bar that needs to be passed for Google to be limited in what they can and can't do.

>which Google certainly has

You’re conflating some ideas here. A marketplace owner always has “dominant market power” over the market they own. That’s the nature of marketplace, the owner gets to set certain rules like the types of payments accepted at the marketplace, because that is literally the job of a marketplace.

Google also has dominant market share, since their App Store is the best for android, but that’s legal (keep in mind Amazon, another $1tn company actively competes in this space) - the government does not want to force consumers to use worse app stores. Competition for the sake of competition is not pro consumer.

What Google probably isn’t doing (and what is illegal) is using its OS market power to crowd out other app marketplaces. As mentioned above Amazon meaningfully competes in this space. The closes you could get there is Google doesn’t publish its own apps to other app marketplaces, but that’s likely not across the bar of anti-competition.

Re: Epic is asking a court to stop Google from yanking Bandcamp off the Play Store

#59

Post by _readyforit »

riversflow wrote: post #30
valdiorn wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good. It should cause outrage.

The only outrage I feel is that Tim Sweeney is using the compensation of starving artists, the main demographic on Bandcamp as I understand it, to try and make himself and EPIC richer or more relatively powerful. I don't give two hoots about "breaking up the App Store Model" and I doubt many/most musicians do either. I personally feel that 30% isn't even outrageous considering the value proposition. Relatively rich/p…

The thing is… 30% is a lot for the artists on Bandcamp.

Say I sell my album for $10 for easy math.

I think Bandcamp takes something like 10-15%, there’s a small PayPal fee (~1%) and the rest goes to me.

That’s ~$8.41 in my pocket.

If Google takes their cut at the beginning for providing…the App Store where the buyer downloaded the app… the artist’s cut becomes ~$5.89. For a $10 album.

It just doesn’t line up with the whole point of Bandcamp.

Re: Epic is asking a court to stop Google from yanking Bandcamp off the Play Store

#60

Post by stale2002 »

riversflow wrote: post #30
valdiorn wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good. It should cause outrage.

The only outrage I feel is that Tim Sweeney is using the compensation of starving artists, the main demographic on Bandcamp as I understand it, to try and make himself and EPIC richer or more relatively powerful. I don't give two hoots about "breaking up the App Store Model" and I doubt many/most musicians do either. I personally feel that 30% isn't even outrageous considering the value proposition. Relatively rich/p…

> I don't give two hoots about "breaking up the App Store Model" and I doubt many/most musicians do either

Well you should. Because regardless of if Epic bought bandcamp or not, the fee that google charges would come directly out of musicians pockets.

Regardless of who is running bandcamp, that feel would directly cause artists to not make as much money.

> I personally feel that 30% isn't even outrageous

Ok, and now the end result is that fee is coming out of artists pockets.

If you don't care about artist compensation, and want them to make less money, well fine. But don't pretend like you are on the side of artist compensation.

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