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Some of the forces blocking new ideas in science

mattsclancy.substack.com

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Re: Some of the forces blocking new ideas in science

#51

Post by chalst »

Gareth321 wrote: post #45
nvr219 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DEI stuff is not at all what's blocking new ideas in science, but your post implies it.

You should speak with some researchers. Entire categories are off limits because DEI politics. I could cite many examples, but one which comes to mind now is that of Noah Carl, formerly of Edmund's College, Cambridge University in England: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-noah-carl-is-fightin... He deigned to research politically contentious topics like migration and IQ. He wasn't just defunded. He was fired.

The racist overtones to Noah Carl's work certainly did his case no favours, but he was doing scholarship whose poor quality is easy to see. Before you get tenure (or the watered-down approximation that the UK has), academia offers essentially no job security: only around of 1/4 of researchers starting their first post-doc will succeed in getting a permanent academic position. I wonder what he was thinking?

Re: Some of the forces blocking new ideas in science

#52

Post by tempnow987 »

cr__ wrote: post #27
tempnow987 wrote: post #2

This primarily I think applies to ACADEMIC science. The funding game in academic science is kind of miserable. Researchers eager to maintain positions for their post docs and grad students etc pay high levels of attention to which way the funding story is going -> ie, telling funders what they want to hear is the key skill. This is not always focused on new ideas. That's because it is pretty horrible not to get funde…

You’re absolutely implying it’s a bad thing and I don’t know why you’re pretending otherwise.

I'd encourage you to engage substantively in the conversation. You know almost nothing about me, and are claiming that I'm pretending. This is not substantive.

Re: Some of the forces blocking new ideas in science

#53

Post by nvr219 »

Gareth321 wrote: post #45
nvr219 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DEI stuff is not at all what's blocking new ideas in science, but your post implies it.

You should speak with some researchers. Entire categories are off limits because DEI politics. I could cite many examples, but one which comes to mind now is that of Noah Carl, formerly of Edmund's College, Cambridge University in England: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-noah-carl-is-fightin... He deigned to research politically contentious topics like migration and IQ. He wasn't just defunded. He was fired.

I speak with researchers all the time. Most agree that Noah Carl's pseudoscience is what got him canned, not any DEI initiatives.

Re: Some of the forces blocking new ideas in science

#54

Post by banannaise »

tempnow987 wrote: post #52
cr__ wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re absolutely implying it’s a bad thing and I don’t know why you’re pretending otherwise.

I'd encourage you to engage substantively in the conversation. You know almost nothing about me, and are claiming that I'm pretending. This is not substantive.

You're absolutely implying it's a bad thing and I can pretty much exactly tell why you're pretending otherwise.

Re: Some of the forces blocking new ideas in science

#55

Post by pvaldes »

tigerlily wrote: post #7

My former academic supervisor’s former academic supervisor died in 2009. He was big name in his field. When I offered my condolences, my professor said “It’s ok. When a mighty tree falls, it can be sad, but it means the light can reach all the little saplings down below”.

True, but there is a collateral that often is dismissed, entire topics can die when the only people interested on them quits.

Is not uncommon to find obscure species that are forgotten for the last 60 or 100 years. The only good definition of the species lies in a book written in dutch in 1923. With internet finding sources is much easier, but can accumulate errors and, as browsers and social media are replacing specialists for free, there is not incentives to pay specialists anymore.

This could mean that those people will never return and that all that remains is politics and ideology. Politics are more willing to pay people in their own ideology or blocking "people incorrect" from having funds, So the next generations will focus more and more around politics wishes and you'll soon have one different "scientific truth" for each party. Is a vicious circle.

Re: Some of the forces blocking new ideas in science

#56

Post by pvaldes »

falcor84 wrote: post #35
BurningFrog wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Often paraphrased as "Science advances one funeral at a time". Perhaps increasing life expectancy is what's holding progress back?

That makes sense, but I like the idea of longevity, and wouldn't want to their the baby with the bathwater. Maybe instead we could have some "term limit" for academic work?

Not, definitely a bad idea. You need a lot of resources, money and time to train an expert. Wouldn't be impossible to recover the investment.

Re: Some of the forces blocking new ideas in science

#57

Post by tempnow987 »

banannaise wrote: post #54
tempnow987 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd encourage you to engage substantively in the conversation. You know almost nothing about me, and are claiming that I'm pretending. This is not substantive.

You're absolutely implying it's a bad thing and I can pretty much exactly tell why you're pretending otherwise.

I can absolutely tell you have no point to make, and so are stuck resorting to assuming bad faith which breaks this sites guidelines and/or race baiting.

Something can be both a good thing and require work. The fact that you don't understand that is what is surprising. If you are in the intersection of academia and govt this is heightened. It's not only DEI work (which has a lot of attention now). And agreement is not universal on steps to take. The NIH has been struggling on things like going to or away from double blind methods for eval. Some have argued to reduce racism double blind is positive, others have been saying that double blind results in a racist result etc.

Work is happening in pipeline areas (dismantling racism in math instruction etc). A reminder that these govt / academic areas have all the other requirements still there, everything from guidelines on federal funding with respect to reproductive health (where the right has put in lots of restrictions and compliance efforts), funding models that complicate the process of carrying positions in various complicated ways, sweatshop compliance steps, virgin redwood compliance steps, northern ireland accord requirements and many many more.

I would really encourage you and your colleagues in this space to get a grip and fast. The arguments I'm seeing above are extremely weak. They are not even arguments, just assertions of bad faith. If you believe industry has to comply with the same rules as folks in academia receiving federal funds, fine, lay it out. I believe you are totally and completely wrong.

Re: Some of the forces blocking new ideas in science

#58

Post by tempnow987 »

Salgat wrote: post #43
tempnow987 wrote: post #2

This primarily I think applies to ACADEMIC science. The funding game in academic science is kind of miserable. Researchers eager to maintain positions for their post docs and grad students etc pay high levels of attention to which way the funding story is going -> ie, telling funders what they want to hear is the key skill. This is not always focused on new ideas. That's because it is pretty horrible not to get funde…

The biggest issue in academia is the push for the number of papers you publish. You see it especially in Machine Learning, where garbage papers are continuously released with very biased tuning to "show how we beat a superior model" along with not releasing any code to ensure that no one could refute their paper, meanwhile those junk papers are securing your tenure and giving you prestige in the industry. It's one bi…

Yes, industry is maybe a bit more outcome oriented in these areas (outside of the snake oil ML / AI marketing and sales efforts which I find just totally ridiculous 90% of the time).

Re: Some of the forces blocking new ideas in science

#59

Post by tempnow987 »

bigbillheck wrote: post #50
tempnow987 wrote: post #2

This primarily I think applies to ACADEMIC science. The funding game in academic science is kind of miserable. Researchers eager to maintain positions for their post docs and grad students etc pay high levels of attention to which way the funding story is going -> ie, telling funders what they want to hear is the key skill. This is not always focused on new ideas. That's because it is pretty horrible not to get funde…

I was in graduate school in the 1990s when anti-sexual harassment training started to come in, and there were plenty of complaints about that.

Yes, my own sense is that it starts in govt / academia and does tend to filter out to industry in some form usually after some of the specifics get worked out a bit more. And don't worry, in places like California where there are still required harassment trainings (every 2 years) there are still complaints! I enforce some of these requirements.

Re: Some of the forces blocking new ideas in science

#60

Post by pvaldes »

pvaldes wrote: post #56
falcor84 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes sense, but I like the idea of longevity, and wouldn't want to their the baby with the bathwater. Maybe instead we could have some "term limit" for academic work?

Not, definitely a bad idea. You need a lot of resources, money and time to train an expert. Wouldn't be impossible to recover the investment.

s/wouldn't/would/
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