Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Serving at the Pleasure of the King

codinghorror.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 128 posts

Re: Serving at the Pleasure of the King

#51

Post by blahedo »

MatthewPhillips wrote: post #8
Vivtek wrote: post #6

1. Windows has always done this. Occasionally people complain; usually they don't. Honestly, I normally consider it a good thing - the Windows functionality is usually bland and relatively feature-free, but works perfectly. There was a time when TCP/IP support was a purchased add-on, after all. I think we all agree that's better to have built in from the get-go and consistent on every aged uncle's machine we're asked…

I disagree with point number 2. From Apple's perspective, it's deleting temporary storage (after all, they're called Caches and tmp. You wouldn't store anything important on /tmp on your desktop, would you?) The "correct" place to put user data on iOS 5+ is any place that syncs with iCloud. That's the crux on this issue: iOS 5 is Apple's assertion that App Store users are their customers, not the app developer's cust…

> The "correct" place to put user data on iOS 5+ is any place that syncs with iCloud.

Um? My understanding is that Apple has forbidden developers from storing in cloud-sync areas anything that is re-downloadable or temporary. Instapaper pages are almost by definition re-downloadable; and there's no need for permanence or even synchronisation with the cloud, just a need for the system not to silently delete the files.

Is my understanding of Apple's policy flawed?

Re: Serving at the Pleasure of the King

#52

Post by chc »

gbog wrote: post #28
raganwald wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment would read better without the argumentative side-excursion in the second-last paragraph. You make this great point, then instead of resting on it, you distract me from thinking about what you're trying to say and ask me to start thinking about whether everyone who down votes you is an Apple lover. Wy make me work to re-read your comment to remind myself what you actually came here to say?

You are right, I should have split it in two probably.

You should have stuck to the matters of substance. It is not necessary to go throwing nerd politics into every discussion, even if you believe someone else will.

Re: Serving at the Pleasure of the King

#53

Post by [deleted] »

gbog wrote: post #16
programminggeek wrote: post #7

He's right and certainly more levelheaded about these kinds of issues than most, but what most don't realize is that many of the software platforms we love have had worse policies for years. Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, and Sega all have/had extremely rigorous review process that was even worse than Apple's if you want to be on their game platform. Phone companies had all these build processes if you wanted to write Ja…

> Phone companies had all these build processes Well, yes, and that's why we had crappy phones for years before iPhone and Android arrived, as noted by Jeff Atwood. I think it shows again that, not unlike the first PCs and their open slots for third-party cards, openness is the right move. Many people here seem to renounce to this, mostly because Apple's walled garden is currently at a pinnacle, but in my opinion it…

[deleted]

Re: Serving at the Pleasure of the King

#54

Post by ajross »

gbog wrote: post #16
programminggeek wrote: post #7

He's right and certainly more levelheaded about these kinds of issues than most, but what most don't realize is that many of the software platforms we love have had worse policies for years. Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, and Sega all have/had extremely rigorous review process that was even worse than Apple's if you want to be on their game platform. Phone companies had all these build processes if you wanted to write Ja…

> Phone companies had all these build processes Well, yes, and that's why we had crappy phones for years before iPhone and Android arrived, as noted by Jeff Atwood. I think it shows again that, not unlike the first PCs and their open slots for third-party cards, openness is the right move. Many people here seem to renounce to this, mostly because Apple's walled garden is currently at a pinnacle, but in my opinion it…

That's pretty much my intuition too. The iPhone is still the best device, but the smartphone market is commoditizing rapidly. Android units aren't very far behind at all and are improving rapidly. And Apple is losing market share to Android, not the reverse.

Apple is milking their success right now, because developers have iPhones and they want to support their favorite hardware. But every story like this drives off a handful of developers. And every week the simple economies look more and more favorable to the competing platform.

Really, the Apple ][ analogy is very good. That platform too ultimately killed itself not for technical reasons, but because Apple refused to give up its margins in the face of the C64 and PC markets and assumed that its stocked developer mindshare would save it. It didn't.

Re: Serving at the Pleasure of the King

#55

Post by derleth »

ashishgandhi wrote: post #50
adabsurdo wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Microsoft never set itself up as the gateway to install third-party software, or as the authority on taste and acceptable content, or on taking a cut on commercial activity taking place on its platform.

Yeah, they did not do that. But that's not the only way to be responsible (consciously or not) for killing smaller developers. > authority on taste and acceptable content I don't know about that. If I want something that Apple doesn't approve for their store - say Grooveshark, for plausible legal complications in the future - I get the Grooveshark app anyway, from some other store that's legal (hint: jailbreak). Pers…

> I would rather have someone make sure (for free) that the app that I download isn't buggy, or crash-y, or other stuff.

Hello, apt-get and yum.

Curated software doesn't have to lead to locked-down systems you can only use at the sufferance of the curators. For example, look at the processes behind Linux distros.

The people who put Linux distros together have been doing this for nigh on twenty years now, with the big caveat that you don't need to 'jailbreak' a Linux machine to install your own software under /usr/local or on your home directory. Even Slackware has packages; the main thing it lacks is dependency-tracking package management.

And, yes, there are filtering processes and even bug-fixing processes in place; Debian, for example, has a lot of people who more-or-less 'own' certain packages to the extent they get the source distributions from the original developers, test them, and modify them to fix bugs and bring them in line with the Debian World Order. All or practically all Debian-derived distros leverage this, Ubuntu foremost among them.

Re: Serving at the Pleasure of the King

#56

Post by glassx »

raganwald wrote: post #17
bcl wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think he was implying that Microsoft was any better than Apple in this regard. He was pointing out that the complaints from developers has been relatively mild compared to the outrage when Microsoft does the same thing.

The complaints from Apple developers have been around forever. Waxing nostalgic, I remember threads on the old Mousehole BBS about Apple and its love-hate relationship with developers. The reaction to Apple steamrolling Panic is classic, and there was a major furor over the dashboard and the way it steamrolled third party widget frameworks. I suspect that Jeff is in a Microsoft-centric culture, so he simply doesn't s…

> The complaints from Apple developers have been around forever.

I have a theory. Apple developers and users are as angry and outraged when things break or their freedom is restricted, and they do complain (just look at the support boards for Logic, Final Cut, Lion), but they're not as loud to outsiders, because EVERY problem with Apple's ecosystem gets amplified 10x.

I still feel that after 10 years Apple still feels like an underdog to lots of users and developers, and, despite occasional problems, people still love it and want to protect it. Actually, I think the word is 'believe', and that's crucial to Apple success. I mean, who else has such a huge community with so many common goals today?

Funnily, I get the same vibes from the GNU/Linux community (oh, in both cases in a very positive way, btw).

Re: Serving at the Pleasure of the King

#57

Post by glassx »

adabsurdo wrote: post #31

I think the Apple app store policies is the bigger problem, because Apple is using it to control not just quality, but content, and forcing applications to use its payment gateway; which in itself, wouldn't much of a problem if they didn't take this gigantic 30% cut (10x more than other payment gateways), and prevented you from knowing your customer. This is truely unprecendented. Microsoft could screw you by cloning…

> And this is why I never understand why so many Apple users want Android & Windows to fail.

Huh? I thought it was the other way around, no? (i.e.: it's not fee, must die, etc)

And really, webapps aren't going anywhere. The App Store was created because of user demand (not because Steve Jobs was a genius), and with Webkit and newer mobile IE it's probably the best time ever to write an web app. It's up to developers to choose.

Re: Serving at the Pleasure of the King

#58

Post by redthrowaway »

latch wrote: post #42
tsotha wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This used to happen all the time in the 1980s and 1990s, before the DoJ anti trust lawsuit really got rolling. Yes, and the reason for the DOJ anti-trust lawsuit? Developers were screaming bloody murder.

Your parent's point is that the reason Microsoft doesn't do this as much now isn't because they are more benevolent, it's because they were so over the top tyrannical that they've been forced to stop.

Not really. Microsoft really is far less evil under Ballmer than Gates. It's also less effective, less farsighted, and slower, but it is less evil.

Re: Serving at the Pleasure of the King

#59

Post by adabsurdo »

ashishgandhi wrote: post #50
adabsurdo wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Microsoft never set itself up as the gateway to install third-party software, or as the authority on taste and acceptable content, or on taking a cut on commercial activity taking place on its platform.

Yeah, they did not do that. But that's not the only way to be responsible (consciously or not) for killing smaller developers. > authority on taste and acceptable content I don't know about that. If I want something that Apple doesn't approve for their store - say Grooveshark, for plausible legal complications in the future - I get the Grooveshark app anyway, from some other store that's legal (hint: jailbreak). Pers…

jailbreaking is indeed a way to get around the apple store, but how many people do this? Must be a tiny fraction of the market. I would like to know of a company that has made serious money targeting it.

there are a whole bunch of apps that you are either not seeing at all (eg, anything that involves shopping), or are seriously crippled through removal of the subscription / buy button: think kindle, netflix, etc. these guys are ok, because they are already established, but what happens if you are just starting up? what happens if/when the web has become a backwater that people just don't want to use anymore, and there's no easy way to make them subscribe to your service?

note also how the 30% cut that apple takes from transactions gives their own alternatives a huge advantage to provide the same service.

Re: Serving at the Pleasure of the King

#60

Post by adabsurdo »

ryanhuff wrote: post #47
adabsurdo wrote: post #31

I think the Apple app store policies is the bigger problem, because Apple is using it to control not just quality, but content, and forcing applications to use its payment gateway; which in itself, wouldn't much of a problem if they didn't take this gigantic 30% cut (10x more than other payment gateways), and prevented you from knowing your customer. This is truely unprecendented. Microsoft could screw you by cloning…

The AppStore isn't just a payment gateway. It's essentially a retail store. You would be hard pressed to get to keep 70% from many other retailers.

I was referring to 'in app' payment gateway
Post reply on HN